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Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @09:59PM (#9301102)
Those kind of statements imply that cattle destroy that water. The water is returned to the environment a few hours after it's ingested. It's usually just part of the natural cycle.

I know you understand this: you talk about eating Texas cattle instead of California cattle, but I wanted to emphasize it for others.

Vast numbers of cattle are raised in semi-desert conditions in Texas and Montana without the use of irrigated feedstock. Those cattle occupy the same ecological niche as the bison did 150 years ago, with a similar environmental impact. Tearing up the native prairie to grow any sort of grain or vegetable crop would destroy the land.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by avn2109 on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:11AM (#9301526)
>> "...cattle occupy the same ecological niche as the bison did 150 years ago, with a similar environmental impact..."

Montana boy here. Even if I concede for purposes of argument that cattle and bison are ecologically interchangeable ungulates (debateable at best), surely we can all agree that it is not the cattle but rather the cattlemen primarily responsible for reshaping the natural environment in the American West, by bulldozing stock ponds, stringing barbed wire over the range, drilling wells, poisoning coyotes, supplanting native grasses with snakeweed and cheatgrass, and most importantly by enforcing a monoculture of cattle. Nature abhors a monoculture almost as much as it abhors a vacuum, and you would never find a bison-era Western landscape with only a single species of charismatic megafauna.

Nobody objects to a smallholder's spread of a dozen head of angus, but when millions of acres are given over to beef production alone, it's broadly disingenuous to claim that the environmental impact of cattle is isomorphic to that of bison on a systems level.

Cattle country today looks like this [0] and this [1], for miles and miles and miles.

Bison country looked like this [2].

It's hard to see how those landscapes are even approximately interchangeable.

[0] http://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/HA027__1MHK0-1...

[1] http://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/HA030__1MHK0-1...

[2] http://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/HA031__1MHK0-2...

NB. All these pictures are taken from an excellent and rather relevant piece of journalism that ran in Harpers here (paywall): http://harpers.org/archive/2015/02/the-great-republican-land...

And I stole my list of rancher's sins from Ed Abbey.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:32AM (#9301623)
History repeating. Here's Harpers from 1947 on the exact same topic: http://home.comcast.net/~mdevoto/AGAINST.htm
Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by bryanlarsen on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @02:26AM (#9301933)
Yes, you're right. But imagine if wheat was grown for the last 120 years rather than grazing cattle. Compared to that, cattle and cattlemen are fairly benign.
Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by specialist on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @11:22PM (#9301335)
Right. And $1,000 spent on bullets has the same ROI as building schools.

"Those cattle occupy the same ecological niche as the bison did 150 years ago, with a similar environmental impact. Tearing up the native prairie to grow any sort of grain or vegetable crop would destroy the land."

No. Bison bite off the grass, leaving the roots. Unlike cattle. Some argue that bison were an important part of the ecosystem.

http://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives/regions/northamerica/un...

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by fizgig on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @08:16AM (#9302997)
There's been modern experimentation with "intensive grazing" to emulate what the early bison herds did to grasslands. Densely packed cattle are moved using temporary electric fence over smaller areas of pasture for shorter amounts of time. The end result is quality feed for the cows, the manure gets trampled into fields, helping water retention and fertility, and the cows are moved along before they completely destroy the area.

Joel Salatin, of Polyface Farms here in Virginia, uses this practice to good success.

I don't know if such practices can sustain the volumes of cheap beef production we enjoy now, but if we properly managed large grazing areas this way, we could utilize land/water/feed much more efficiently than we do now.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by IndianAstronaut on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @01:47AM (#9301835)
The taste of ground bison isn't too bad. Not very gamey. Strips and steaks though are a different story.
Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by raldi on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @10:04PM (#9301118)
> The water is returned to the environment a few hours after it's ingested.

Just like the water that comes out of my showerhead or toilet, but the state still places big restrictions on each of those.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by thaumaturgy on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @10:25PM (#9301169)
I'd argue in your favor that the water coming out of your showerhead or toilet gets used a lot more efficiently than the water going into cattle. In the case of residential water, most of it pretty efficiently goes to treatment facilities which then reuse it again for municipal landscape watering or non-potable purposes.

In the cattle case, most of it goes to the superficial surface of the ground, and since so much of the beef and cattle operations in California don't have the luxury of grass or anything green on the ground, it just evaporates away.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @10:23PM (#9301165)
The difference is that animals drinking water is part of the natural cycle, showers are not. There's essentially no difference between the water usage of cattle on unirrigated native prairie and the water usage of the bison that preceded them.

Of course, cattle in California isn't raised on unirrigated native prairie, like they are in Texas or Montana.

Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by thrownaway2424 on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @11:34PM (#9301368)
Lots of cattle are raised on grasslands in California, but not in the San Joaquin Valley, because that would be a waste of prime land. You can find grazing lands in Marin, Sonoma, San Benito, and other hilly counties.
Re:How Growers Gamed California’s Drought by jtmcmc on Thursday April 02, 2015 @01:50AM (#9308888)
The water used is largely due to the amount of water used to grow the feedstock of the cattle. This is not returned shortly after it's ingested.