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Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by l10nf15h on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:13PM (#9248473)
Lets not forget that Singapore executes a higher percentage of its population than any other country on earth and canes people slicing into flesh.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:01PM (#9248623)
That was true in the 1990s, but not in the last 10 years where use of capital punishment has been consistently less than 10 persons per year, including foreign nationals (i.e. not "its population").

Conversely the USA has a much higher percentage of its population sitting in prison. I suspect many of those people would prefer a caning over the loss of many productive years of their life.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by l10nf15h on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:54PM (#9248763)
It's not meant to be a comparison. I am simply asking why most of this thread is celebrating a man that created a police state that is the model for Asia.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:53PM (#9249084)
You made the comparison, you can't say it wasn't meant to be a comparison.

Strip away the jingoism, and I really don't see how the USA is any less of a police state than Singapore. From stop-and-frisk to civil forfeiture and the TSA, the United States is every bit a police state with just a thin outer layer of constitutional democracy.

I've lived in both countries for extended periods, and I know which I'd prefer to live in. (Though if we look at California in isolation, I might prefer that, but only for the nice weather and cheap cars.)

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by unethical_ban on Sunday March 22, 2015 @11:19PM (#9249337)
At least in America, we can bitch about it and (mostly) not be jailed or murdered for it. Heck, sometimes, things even change for the better.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @11:37PM (#9249392)
You can bitch about police corruption in Singapore -- rare as it is. The media isn't afraid to report, and the government isn't afraid to act.

And sure, you can bitch about it in the USA -- common as it is. Except the media doesn't care (unless you have particularly compelling video footage) and the government is too scared to act.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jpatokal on Monday March 23, 2015 @12:29AM (#9249501)
Are you serious? Here's an actual case of corruption at a government-linked org in Singapore: in particular, look how three people making claims that later turned out to entirely factual were sued into apologizing, and the bubble only burst when the NKF made the mistake of suing somebody even better-connected to the establishment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Kidney_Foundation_Sin...

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by skinnylatte on Monday March 23, 2015 @03:58AM (#9249879)
So we are too corrupt or are we too authoritarian?

After all we just jailed a man over pineapple tart corruption.

NKF is not the government. That's kind of like saying that TSA molests people, and that the federal government is responsible for it.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by nailer on Monday March 23, 2015 @05:18AM (#9250026)
It's possible to be both. Do not tolerate protest, and also promote family members to run state organisations.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by skinnylatte on Tuesday March 24, 2015 @02:47AM (#9255187)
I think you'll find that there are no grounds to prove the latter part of your statement in a way which supports your implied accusations of nepotism.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Monday March 23, 2015 @01:01AM (#9249568)
Exception that proves the rule.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by skinnylatte on Monday March 23, 2015 @03:56AM (#9249873)
Here in Singapore, you can bitch about it and not be jailed or murdered for it. We bitch about (everything) most of the time. We also have a healthy assumption that we are never going to be murdered in our lifetimes in Singapore, and that things do get better most of the time, which is more than can be said for America.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jfoster on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:37PM (#9248873)
It's a country that has extremely low crime, and an amazing economy. Achieved with fewer resources and greater speed than any successful country in history.

Singapore has a different set of problems than the rest of the world. I think that's refreshing.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by Panoramix on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:57PM (#9248617)
For what is worth, I'd rather be executed than to "live" in an American prison. The idea that solitary confinement occurs in a first world country is appalling and scary. Don't get me started on the things inmates and guards do to some people.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by username223 on Sunday March 22, 2015 @10:34PM (#9249205)
> For what is worth, I'd rather be executed than to "live" in an American prison.

Same. I'm not sure whether capital punishment should still be a thing, but anyone given a life sentence should have the option to choose death instead. Life in a supermax prison is deeply inhumane.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:18PM (#9248670)
It takes a long time to execute people in the USA. Having an execution hanging over your head for 20 years probably makes prison much, much, much worse.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ams6110 on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:28PM (#9249015)
Well everyone has their own death hanging over their head all the time.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:46PM (#9249062)
Yes, but it is often not imminent until you are old enough to not care anymore. You might die tomorrow in some freak accident, but you'll live today as if you aren't going to. In this case, ignorance is bliss.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:14PM (#9248477)
I thought they mostly executed foreigners getting caught running drugs through the airport?
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ptaipale on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:43PM (#9248576)
Looking at figures in Wikipedia, compiled by Amnesty International, foreigners have been always in the minority, except for one year recently (2007) when two people out of three were foreigners. This became possible because the number of executions has dropped drastically since 1990's (from around 70 per year to around 3-7 per year; in 2010 it was zero). If the number is 1 and the one happens to be foreigner some year, then the foreigner rate will be 100 %.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by smcl on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:49PM (#9248594)
I'm not sure that's any better to be quite honest, even if it's true (I have no figures at hand)
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by l10nf15h on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:33PM (#9248541)
Singapore will also execute anyone for simply possessing a firearm.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ptaipale on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:46PM (#9248581)
Not quite, Wikipedia: "Trafficking in arms (Section 6) is a capital offence in Singapore. Under the Arms Offences Act, trafficking is defined as being in unlawful possession of more than two firearms."
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by l10nf15h on Sunday March 22, 2015 @06:53PM (#9248605)
That is still shocking to anyone in the US where the ratio of guns to people is 1:1.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ptaipale on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:07PM (#9248637)
Yes, but note that the offense is for unlawful possession of firearms, not lawful possession (though I imagine the conditions for lawful possession in Singapore are extremely restrictive).

Where I live (Finland) the ratio is 2:5 (2 million legal guns, 5 million people). That's the highest in EU. We also have among the highest homicide rate in EU, but these two rates are not really connected (i.e. very few of the homicides done with a gun.).

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by adventured on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:02PM (#9248779)
I think Sweden and Germany have you matched or beat on guns per capita in the EU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_co...

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by branchless on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:33PM (#9248857)
And 1:1 guns ratio is shocking for most of the rest of the world...
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:05PM (#9248632)
The 1:1 ratio of guns to people is shocking to the majority of the civilised world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by refurb on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:29PM (#9248692)
Why? Many other countries come close to that ratio. Is there something intrinsically bad about that?
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:32PM (#9249022)
No, very few countries come close to that ratio. The poster-child for widespread gun ownership, Switzerland, still only has half as many guns per capita[0] as the US. They also have laws that prohibit most people from carrying loaded guns. The result is a gun homicide rate less than 1/5th that of the US per capita.[1]

Yes, intrinsically bad. It's pretty clear to anyone who doesn't live in a gun "bubble". Number one cause of death by gun? Suicide. Watch that YouTube clip[2] in full; it summarises my opinion quite well. The second amendment makes sense in the era of muskets, but in the present day only serves to make everyday life less safe, and police officers more Ferguson-ey.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_co...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-re...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jessaustin on Sunday March 22, 2015 @10:02PM (#9249113)
If the attempt is to understand the roots of homicide, rather than just bash one nation or another, it's more instructive to look at homicides [0], rather than homicides of a particular flavor. A careful look at that list will make it clear that elevated homicide rates are a legacy of colonization, at least as much as legal policy. Those in the Americas or Africa can't really be blamed that they were colonized by Europeans. Therefore, nations in the bottom, say, third of the table for those continents really aren't doing such a bad job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Sunday March 22, 2015 @11:34PM (#9249372)
If your argument is that America's problems are caused by Europe, that's pretty embarrassing.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ptaipale on Monday March 23, 2015 @06:14AM (#9250139)
Well, I didn't read the argument like that. More like that the homicide rates are a legacy of the process of colonization; in a country that was first colonies and then a nation expanding across the North American continent, sometimes meeting hostile original inhabitants who were mercilessly and violently overrun, there was violence, and that violence necessitated self-defence, which in turn means the people traditionally rely on guns they use themselves, not the authorities and legal process - because the authorities weren't there.

Plus that in Europe, the powers-that-be have largely wanted to avoid revolutions, which means that the public's access to firearms as well as right to self-defence is restricted and police, gendarmerie and similar organisations have true monopoly on (lawful) violence. America, in turn, is a child of revolution and is revering the overthrowing of powers-that-be who were perceived as tyrants.

That's just my understanding of the history how the United States has come to this situation, not a value statement that it's how things should be.

(Just for comparison, compare to other countries colonized at the same time or earlier, like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Honduras, Colombia, Nicaragua - they all have much higher homicide rates than the U.S.)

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by refurb on Monday March 23, 2015 @12:21AM (#9249490)
They also have laws that prohibit most people from carrying loaded guns.

Not sure I understand. Switzerland has 1/2 the guns, but nowhere near 50% of the US' homicide rate. Are you saying the ability to legally carry a gun is the reason for the difference?

The states that legally allow carrying a concealed weapon without a permit (VT, AK) have some of the lowest murder rates of all states.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Monday March 23, 2015 @08:29AM (#9250492)
The reason is that Swiss society doesn't fetishize gun ownership in quite the same way. Nobody in Switzerland is going to the mall carrying a handgun for "protection" and nobody would be so stupid to ever think that was a good idea.

As for concealed carry permit states, VT and AK have murder rates remarkably consistent with geographical neighbors. You are dead wrong to claim they are somehow special.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 22, 2015 @07:44PM (#9248740)
I think the bigger problem is that we manufacture many more guns than we can use, which is basically tacit support for the guns for drug trade.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by refurb on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:44PM (#9248891)
The US? People can own more than one gun. The 1:1 ratio is for privately own guns. Doesn't include military or guns for export.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by 9872 on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:13PM (#9248963)
Is there something intrinsically bad about executing illegal arms dealers?
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by wycx on Monday March 23, 2015 @07:45AM (#9250381)
Mandatory execution sees offenders only as their offence, rather than human beings, and denies offenders the opportunity to change for the better. It is cynical and pessimistic.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by sjwright on Monday March 23, 2015 @08:47AM (#9250555)
Treating offenders only as their offence is what most justice systems to to most criminals most of the time. Particularly in the USA, where incarceration is a for-profit business traded on the stock market.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by ptaipale on Monday March 23, 2015 @04:15PM (#9253112)
Is there a mandatory execution for firearms violation in Singapore? I didn't think so.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by lalalander on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:31PM (#9248846)
Your point being? The possession of firearm is illegal in the country.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jqgatsby on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:23PM (#9248998)
Your response and the thinking it indicates gave me a chill. You are justifying executing someone based on whether or not they broke a state law, not on whether or not they broke a moral law. Either you think firearm possession is inherently immoral (problematic but defensible position), or you think moral law and state law are equivalent (terrifying position) or you think something else that I haven't thought of. My experience in Singapore showed that the moral/state equivalence position was very common. It was the most unsafe "safe" place I've ever been in.

When we arrived at the airport, my wife was detained because the silver earrings she was wearing were cast from a mold to look like empty bullet cartridges (with feathers and various doodads attached, nothing that had attracted any attention in any of a dozen high security settings). The bureaucrat who interrogated her claimed that whether she was in very serious trouble or not was entirely in his hands.

I'm no second amendment fanatic, but as an American, it was shocking to find myself in a position where some minor official could plausibly even claim to have so much power. The fact that Singaporean society is willing to make that kind of tradeoff for the sake of safety made me realize that it was not somewhere I could ever live.

The craziest part was that the Singaporeans and expats I met there did not even see it as a tradeoff. It was more like "these are the rules, if you follow them you will be so safe, whether the rules are right or just or good isn't a well-posed question". We were just having two different conversations.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by fx85ms on Sunday March 22, 2015 @10:31PM (#9249197)
> You are justifying executing someone based on whether or not they broke a state law, not on whether or not they broke a moral law.

What are these moral laws you speak of? Your opinions on what is right and what is wrong?

The cases you present for firearm possession is simply a case of false dichotomy. Firearm possession is not inherently immoral. The armies of the country would definitely need them to protect the country against others, especially for Singapore who is surrounded by hostile neighbours.

Citizen ownership of firearms, on the other hand, is a highly impractical thing. It is illegal to own firearms in the country and that is just how the laws of the countries were set up in the first place. I would not go as far as to say that owning them is immoral, but by intentionally breaking the laws of the country, what are you trying to imply?

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jqgatsby on Monday March 23, 2015 @12:09AM (#9249463)
First, we weren't intentionally breaking any law. Second, arguing for or against firearms is beside the point. I'm arguing against people blindly obeying any law, if it comes at the expense of exercising sound personal judgment.
Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by jpatokal on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:51PM (#9249080)
While I don't disagree, it's worth noting that any minor official at any airport -- and this very much includes the US -- has very, very wide-ranging powers over non-citizens traipsing through. Sample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

Singaporean officials are also very keen on following the letter of the law, and in Singapore that letter happens to state that unauthorized possession of ammunition is a Very Big Deal.

Re:Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singap... by duckingtest on Monday March 23, 2015 @01:05AM (#9249576)
What wrong with caning? It's a much more effective punishment than a jail term. Pain is a strong negative reinforcement, while prison for career criminals feels more like home than freedom. It's drastically cheaper than a prison term. It prevents the contact with prison subculture/gangs. Additionally, it provides some restitution to victims, in the case of violent crimes.

I see no downsides.