I agree in which gives it a bad rep, but also vendors are at fault with this. because the web is freedom and they wanted to claim it. it which cause a big rip. remember the web gave us so much in the programming world. also Php and non-python(i like python)language can be written very clean, easy to understand and maintainable way. but some people use python because that reason mostly. which should be the only case. sorry Guido