Re:Obama's view on schools
by dkarl on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @06:34PM
(#922873)
Way to lead by example, Obama. It's kind of pathetic, but this story (assuming the right people hear about it) could actually open some eyes. His kid gets a C, and he doesn't just get angry at the teacher and demand a better grade. What a concept! Too many parents don't believe in education or skills; they think education is a sham, schools just anoint "winners in life," and public schools have no business discriminating when they hand out tickets to the middle class.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by patio11 on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @10:02PM
(#923223)
I don't think I'll ever agree with him on policy, but if he convinces the country that going from a C to a 95 is "acting black", I will happily anoint him my favorite president ever.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by btilly on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @06:03PM
(#922813)
In general I think these changes are better than nothing, except for the exceptions where they work out horribly.
http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/39809 mentions the interesting example of a teacher who teaches Russian immigrants. No matter how well she teaches, she's got the huge disadvantage that her students start with no proficiency in English and so are guaranteed to do well. Pay for performance rules are a strong disincentive for taking on tough challenges like that.
Still the current system is so horribly broken that I am personally willing to put up with breakage like that.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by bokonist on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @07:17PM
(#922954)
In any sort of sane pay for performance system the teacher would be judged based on improvement from when the student entered their class. ( not that I expect any sort of sane pay-for-performance scheme to be implemented)
Re:Obama's view on schools
by unalone on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @06:15PM
(#922835)
This sounds great, but for the fact that most of the things students are being reviewed on are meaningless bullshit. How are teachers being measured? By AP scores? Grades overall? Because as a still-fresh departure from grade school, I'm pretty sure 90% of the stuff I was tested on was bullshit. My teachers knew that and let me get away with poor grades so I could learn what I wanted to, and that's where I learned. If every teacher's now being taught that they should be pushing their students to get good grades, I predict we won't see much good come out of this initiative.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by tokenadult on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @05:47PM
(#922783)
"For one thing, Obama called for the abolition of 'firewall' rules, which presently prevent many schools from judging teacher performance based on student performance."
I suppose in most cases those rules are consequences of contract provisions insisted upon by teacher union representatives.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by roundsquare on Thursday November 05, 2009 @04:21AM
(#923573)
Maybe. If so, then the policy being suggested here would be to disallow these provisions (or at least discourage them). Maybe something like increased pay for loss of "firewall."
Re:Obama's view on schools
by pmichaud on Thursday November 05, 2009 @02:33PM
(#924546)
The main argument against this is that teachers might be penalized for teaching in rough schools instead of lily-white. middle class, suburban schools. I don't see a reason the system couldn't be set up to normalize the schools based on what the metrics turn out to be.
I guess each school would get a performance index that would act as a coefficient for the teachers there. E.g., the metric is a test score, and one school consistently scores near the national average, while another is 10 points lower. The teachers at the lower school would have their evaluation bumped 10 points because of the index. That way we'd be comparing apples to applies.
It could actually incentivize teachers to move into more difficult schools if the index were a little over done so that they were rewarded slightly more for the same effort. Their effort would theoretically move the school's average into line with the national average, then they'd be evaluated/paid the same -- they could then move on to the next problem school, and improve that.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by andreyf on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @07:22PM
(#922964)
There's no such thing as public education. Education happens to exactly one person at a time. There are some things that you just have to do by yourself. And there’s no such thing as compulsory education. Education is something that each of us gives to ourselves or allows others to give us. [1]
We need a culture of intrinsic ambition and excellence - among students, among teachers, and among professionals. Focusing on fake heuristics - grades, standardized tests, gold stars - only teaches one to cheat, not to personally excel.
Re:Obama's view on schools
by wsprague on Wednesday November 04, 2009 @06:53PM
(#922909)
I know people who work in social services who have noticed a change in the last generation. Before, you would think twice before telling a working class parent that the child misbehaved because the parent might discipline too harshly. Today, the parents always assume the kids are right when they come home whining about how mean the teacher was. Don't know which is better or worse....
http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/39809 mentions the interesting example of a teacher who teaches Russian immigrants. No matter how well she teaches, she's got the huge disadvantage that her students start with no proficiency in English and so are guaranteed to do well. Pay for performance rules are a strong disincentive for taking on tough challenges like that.
Still the current system is so horribly broken that I am personally willing to put up with breakage like that.
In other words, real world training.
I suppose in most cases those rules are consequences of contract provisions insisted upon by teacher union representatives.
http://www.amazon.com/Teacher-Unions-Sabotage-Educational-Re...
I guess each school would get a performance index that would act as a coefficient for the teachers there. E.g., the metric is a test score, and one school consistently scores near the national average, while another is 10 points lower. The teachers at the lower school would have their evaluation bumped 10 points because of the index. That way we'd be comparing apples to applies.
It could actually incentivize teachers to move into more difficult schools if the index were a little over done so that they were rewarded slightly more for the same effort. Their effort would theoretically move the school's average into line with the national average, then they'd be evaluated/paid the same -- they could then move on to the next problem school, and improve that.
In fact it makes me wonder how he motivated her to improve her grade to 95%....
Agreed though, I would like to know...
We need a culture of intrinsic ambition and excellence - among students, among teachers, and among professionals. Focusing on fake heuristics - grades, standardized tests, gold stars - only teaches one to cheat, not to personally excel.
1. http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0208f.asp