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Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by bpodgursky on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @03:26PM (#9179998)
What I don't fully understand is, usually when scientists try to preserve rare species, there is a critical mass under which there isn't enough genetic diversity to preserve the species (I've seen ~30 quoted for some rare mammals). But in this case, just two individuals were able to start a viable population. Why are these insects different? I can only think of a couple reasons...

- since these insects have a r-selection curve, it's ok if 90% of the offspring are genetic defects, you can always produce another 1,000 eggs

- the insects had maintained such a small population for so long that any critical defects had been bred out

But I'd be interested to hear from a real biologist.

Edit: oops, meant r-selection, not k-selection

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by mapt on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @04:40PM (#9180472)
IANARB, but-

Minimum viable genetic diversity is not a particularly well-established or even objectively knowable metric. I think the relevant number is often vastly overstated, or at least stated without mentioning the strong and arbitrary assumptions that need to be made in determining it.

Wikipedia says: "The cheetah has unusually low genetic variability. This is accompanied by a very low sperm count, motility, and deformed flagella.[14] Skin grafts between unrelated cheetahs illustrate the former point, in that there is no rejection of the donor skin. It is thought that the species went through a prolonged period of inbreeding following a genetic bottleneck during the last ice age. This suggests that genetic monomorphism did not prevent the cheetah from flourishing across two continents for thousands of years.[15]"

Now - cheetahs are objectively less fit than they would have been without these population bottlenecks, but they're fit enough that they have not been outcompeted. They are probably highly vulnerable to contagion, though - maybe it's only a matter of time before something figures out how to wipe them out... but maybe not. Science isn't gonna be able to predict that one for you.

Anything we can figure out how to breed in captivity, in a controlled environment without predators and with an abundant food supply, has very low pressure on it - these bugs could all have the insect equivalent of mental retardation and missing limbs and at least some of them could probably make it to successfully reproduce.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by Retric on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @11:44PM (#9182477)
It also relates to new mutations. An insect with 1,000 offspring might lose 95% of them and still be viable, but most birds or mammals would quickly go extinct if 95% of their offspring where non viable.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by arthurcolle on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @04:56PM (#9180564)
what is the RB in your "I am not a..." ?
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by jmiwhite on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @05:01PM (#9180591)
'Real Biologist', as requested by the parent.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by jonalmeida on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:17PM (#9181088)
Or possibly 'Research Biologist'.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by philcrump on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @04:19PM (#9180341)
From the subtley linked 'Husbandry Manual': http://www.aszk.org.au/docs/lhisi.pdf

Section 3.2 (p8)

The population at Melbourne Zoo, being descended from a single pair, appeared to experience increasing symptoms of inbreeding over two generations until four adult males were introduced, descended from a second pair held at Insektus in Sydney, and their genes began to have an influence.

After new males were introduced, no further abnormalities were observed...

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @01:17AM (#9182710)
That was still pretty interesting, I think. The Melbourne Zoo population ballooned after the four new males arrived: " the population at Melbourne Zoo, which hovered around 20 individuals at any time during the first three years of captive management, rose to 600 within 12 months of the males’ genes taking effect." Even though the four males were all descended from a single (different) pair. That means they got a stable breeding population out of only two breeding pairs! I really wouldn't have thought introducing a single extra pair of ancestors would have fixed everything so dramatically.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @06:10AM (#9183370)
I don't know; a 100% increase in whatever you've got is generally thought of as significant.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by uiri on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @03:36PM (#9180071)
The article touches on this a little bit, I think.

Eve's eggs were harvested, incubated (though it turns out only the first 30 were fertile) and became the foundation of the zoo's new population of walking sticks.

I am not a real biologist, but I suspect it is some combination of the factors you suggest and that their genome may be simple enough that most defects make the eggs nonviable.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by ufo on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @04:28PM (#9180402)
Insects also have complex genomes. The egg fertility most likely has to do with other issues (differences between the natural habitat and captivity, maybe there is a natural tendency for not all eggs to be fertile, etc)
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by jschwartzi on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @10:23PM (#9182165)
I wonder if the infertile eggs are a sort of decoy? Those eggs look like they might be large enough to make an attractive meal for a bird.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by ufo on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @10:59PM (#9182305)
Nature is complicated. Not everything needs to have an adaptionist explanation.
Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by learnstats2 on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:18PM (#9181101)
It's true that inbreeding of a small population results in deleterious recessive traits becoming more readily apparent. However, this would still normally apply only to a small percentage of offspring.

As such, I would not expect inbreeding to affect the viability of an insect species at all. If they can produce a viable first generation, the large majority of that generation can produce a viable second generation.

Mammals might have a harder time with inbreeding because they produce few children, and as such any problems are less likely to be resolved through another line.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by delecti on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @04:05PM (#9180255)
I'm not a biologist, but that probably hits the nail on the head, though judging by your comment I think you meant k-selection, and it's actually r-selection that pertains to the "spray and pray" approach to offspring. [1]

There's also likely some luck involved that the initial two on that island happened to be viable colony starters.

[1] http://www.bio.miami.edu/tom/courses/bil160/bil160goods/16_r...

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by rcthompson on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @05:49PM (#9180903)
The main short-term issue with inbreeding is the emergence of recessive traits. If there are few deleterious recessive traits in the genome of a species, then inbreeding will not be a major problem.

In the long term, inbreeding is also a problem because it limits genetic diversity, which means anything with an adverse effect on one individual will adversely affect all individuals (the same problem as "monoculture" in software).

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by masklinn on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @06:32AM (#9183413)
IANAB but

> there is a critical mass under which there isn't enough genetic diversity to preserve the species (I've seen ~30 quoted for some rare mammals)

The Blue Book ("Viable Populations for Conservation") puts it between 50 and 1000 individuals for 95% probability of survival over 100 years, but it's highly variable between species and ecosystems on both intrinsic (r-strategy which you quoted) and historical grounds: for the second case, the Mauritius Kestrel was brought back from an effective population of 2 mated pairs. But its ecosystem has a carrying capacity of under 1000 individuals and it had already gone through several genetic bottlenecks.

The weta are r-strategist anyway, Poor Knights wetas have clutches of 200~300 eggs.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by 1ris on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:16PM (#9181439)
Like most other people here I'm not a real biologist either, but incest does not need to be a problem. Almost all dog-races are the result of lots and lots of inbreeding.

Ill effects of incest can be avoided with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_purging . In case there are only very few individuals left that's probably not what one wants to do, though.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by pvaldes on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:37PM (#9181233)
Are different in a "parthenogenetic way". They can clone itselves if necessary. Thus, a single isolated female can lead to an unlimited population of females, all of them genetically identical to its mother, grand-mother etc. It seems that the species is not very worried with the idea of living with a low level of genetic combinations (and mutations can still occur increasing slowly the genetic diversity).

great post.

Re:Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Year... by pvaldes on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @08:58PM (#9181878)
well, It seems that parthenogenesis is not still confirmed in this species. Is frequent among stick insects in any case.