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Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by nkurz on Friday October 30, 2009 @02:41PM (#912536)
There are two levels --- the first is within the context of a class assignment, and the second is as a business operation.

1) The bike tire pressure check isn't bad, but seems to be cheating on the class solution by using outside materials. Once one can 'presume' a pressure gauge and a pump, why not presume further specialized equipment or further outside funding? As a business proposition I was happy with it when they were charging a set price, but I personally feel uneasy with the change to donations. This isn't clear cut, but it's guilt based and I wouldn't do it myself despite the effectiveness. Compare with the Hare Krishna technique of forcing free flowers and then asking for a donation: http://www.garyasanchez.com/what-hare-krishnas-can-teach-us-...

2) Selling restaurant reservations is probably fine within the context of the class, but is a violation of the expectations of the restaurant. If everyone were to follow their approach, the system would collapse and the restaurant would need to implement a policy of cancellation charges. My simple view would be that if the restaurant would change their system if you told them what you plan to do, it is immoral.

3) From the point of view of the class, the winning solution feels like a cheap trick. Yes, it makes money, but not under the rules that were officially given. From a business point of view, it takes advantage of a captive audience. What's really being sold is the time of a third party who does not benefit from the transaction, and yet due to social constraints is unable to leave. This strikes me as both immoral and dishonest.

I fear that my scruples here aren't entirely consistent, and I'm pretty certain that they reduce my ability to make easy money. But I enjoy being in a situation where I can make decisions based on the answer to "Would the world be a better place if everyone followed this advice?". And for me, on this criteria, the last two solutions fail, and the first is on the edge once the donation approach is taken.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by mechanical_fish on Friday October 30, 2009 @04:31PM (#912719)
My simple view would be that if the restaurant would change their system if you told them what you plan to do, it is immoral.

Well, that moral principle is not going to generalize well.

But let's resist the urge to play moral philosopher and consider the facts: Would the restaurants want to stop you from doing this?

I don't think it's obvious. If I pick up half a dozen extra reservations and then try to sell them, I don't really add to the workload of the greeter, unless I pick up substantially more than end up being used. (Obviously, if you try to get 100 reservations, sell five, and return the other 95, the restaurant is going to stop you. So, don't do that!)

What you're essentially doing is allowing people to buy a better position in line. That seems perfectly rational: An upcoming reservation, like a stock option, is a commodity, so one can put a price on it, right? And it's worth noting that restaurants do this all the time [1]:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=318827

...it's called "bribing the maitre'd", and they don't advertise it, even though -- if it weren't for other considerations -- it's a good thing for the restaurant. A person who is willing to pay cash money to get in to your restaurant faster is probably someone with (a) more money to spend, so they're likely to order wine and dessert and all the good stuff that pads the profit margin, or (b) a big fan of your restaurant, such that they'll pay extra to come to your restaurant instead of the less-busy restaurant down the street, or (c) about to become a big fan of your restaurant, because they can always get a seat there right away; it's just a matter of a few bucks!

So the real mystery is why restaurants don't do this themselves. I suspect that the answer is social signaling: A restaurant doesn't want to be the entity that makes the majority of its customers feel poor. For every person whom you allow to publicly buy their way to the front of the line, you send a message to an entire line-full of other people that they're just too cheap or too poor to do the same thing. The point of a restaurant is to allow people to feel rich at a fixed rate, not to force them to feel poor at variable rates. So before long your restaurant will have a reputation as "that obnoxious place which caters to snooty rich people who want to show off all their money". Unless that's your business plan, that isn't a good idea.

(It is this, not the fear of breaking some non-existent law against overtipping maitre'ds, that keeps the practice of bribing maitre'ds below the radar. It's okay to spend money for better service; it's impolite for either party to call attention to it.)

The solution that these entrepreneurs have come up with is to create two queues: The queue run by the restaurant, and a separate queue containing the reservations owned by the entrepreneurs, which they will sell for a fee. The genius of this is that there's a strict limit to how many rich people can buy their way ahead of you: The entrepreneurs only have so many spots ahead of yours. Then the entrepreneurs can fix the fee to enter their queue, which will help prevent unsightly bidding wars from breaking out in front of the restaurant. And, because the whole scheme is run by a third party, the restaurant doesn't have to adjudicate disputes, or explain all this to everyone who shows up, or spoil their reputation as scrupulously fair egalitarians who would be shocked -- shocked! -- by the offering of a bribe.

So my guess is that restaurants might be okay with this, if it's done right. (i.e. The right number of "buyable" reservations vs the usual ones, the right fixed rate, no intimidation of customers, and of course no counterfeit reservations. I believe it is the latter two problems that have given rise to laws against ticket scalping.)

---

[1] How great is it that when trying to google this article the first thing I find is the HN link?

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by kevinpet on Sunday November 01, 2009 @11:52AM (#915224)
A restaurant who takes reservations is entering into an agreement: you promise that you will eat a meal there at a certain time, and they promise that they will have a table ready for you at that time.

If the restaurant is all booked up, they turn people away. If some of those reservations are held by scalpers, and the scalpers don't find a buyer, the table will be empty when it may have been used if not for the actions of the scalpers.

What the students did was to break this unenforceable contract, and convert an agreement to make a transaction at some point in the future into a pure option on their part. That's stealing value.

If the restaurants want to do this, that's one thing. If the restaurant attempts to cultivate an image of being the hip spot to be seen, then it's in their interest to seat anyone dressed nice, or has money to throw around, or whatever, preferentially. But I would expect that they take this factor into account when setting the wages of the maitre d, just as they account for tips when setting the waiters' wages. Thus, the restaurant captures the value.

If this became prevalent, I would expected restaurants to move back to a model of calling names, or asking the name as if they can't tell from what number buzzer you had. Psychologically, buying a buzzer would seem okay to a lot of people who would not be comfortable if what you were selling is "listen for Charlie, party of 4, and say you're Charlie".

All the above applies equally to buzzers or waiting in an physical queue. If the queue is visibly large or if the host says it's a 45 minute wait rather than a 20 minute wait, some patrons will go elsewhere.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by gnaritas on Friday October 30, 2009 @08:26PM (#913084)
There's no genius in this, it's just plain dishonest, and if any restaurant knew you were making fake reservations and then selling them they'd put a stop to it. That you don't think this is obvious blows my mind, and forces me to think you're a dishonest person in general. I can't fathom an honest person not immediately seeing this as wrong.
Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by a-priori on Saturday October 31, 2009 @05:38AM (#913411)
Okay, first of all, you should apologise to mechanical_fish. Ad hominem attacks are not cool.

I agree it's a bit shady to sell reservations, and I would be uncomfortable to play any role in this (person in line, person buying, student selling, or restaurant employee), but how is it "dishonest"? That implies deception, and I see none.

Selling reservations definitely violates the egalitarian "first-come, first-served" nature of the restaurant queue. If I were a restaurant owner, I wouldn't let it happen out of fairness to the people in the queue who don't want to pay. Both choices send strong signals, certainly, but I think that's a choice on the restaurant's part.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by Tichy on Saturday October 31, 2009 @08:55AM (#913498)
"That implies deception, and I see none."

Isn't it deceptive to make a reservation at the restaurant without any intentions to ever show up?

Call the restaurant and tell them "we would like to reserve 10 seats with the intention of selling them on the free market". If they give you the reservations, you have a honest business.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by a-priori on Saturday October 31, 2009 @11:49AM (#913632)
To be fair, they do intend to have someone show up and fill the table.
Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by Tichy on Saturday October 31, 2009 @12:36PM (#913688)
What if nobody is buying? Anyway, further discussion seems futile.
Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by gnaritas on Saturday October 31, 2009 @01:17PM (#913751)
I owe him no such thing, nor did I attack him. I spoke of my own state of mind, that his comment made me think he was dishonest; I did not say that he was.

Omitting the truth is just as dishonest as lying. You don't try and parse technicalities with honesty, either you were acting in good faith or you weren't, not telling the restaurant that you intend to sell the reservations - something certainly outside their expectations - is deceptive and is most certainly dishonest.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by gloob on Saturday October 31, 2009 @03:56PM (#913968)
I owe him no such thing, nor did I attack him. I spoke of my own state of mind, that his comment made me think he was dishonest; I did not say that he was.

Saying things like that makes me think you're a sophist.

See?

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by raffi on Saturday October 31, 2009 @12:31AM (#913272)
I once heard one of the participants from the first season of the Apprentice speak. One of the assignments her team was given was to take a business taxiing people about via bicycle and make it as profitable as possible.

Most the teams decided to jump on the idea of selling advertising. Her team had the insight to realize they weren't just selling advertising on a taxi-bike but they were selling advertising on a national television show. Needless to say they won that round. This is what the third team sounds like to me. Legitimate.

Re:If you had 5 dollars and 2 hours, how would you make as m... by rdrimmie on Friday October 30, 2009 @03:32PM (#912611)
Regarding item 1, in the real world analogy of getting seed money an entrepreneur certainly isn't limited to only using that seed money. They can use their credit cards or their house or their own equipment or anything else.

The point of the exercise quite explicitly was to teach people to look past constraints that do not exist, like the $5 limitation you're getting stuck on. There was no restriction on using outside materials, that is a constraint you created on your own due to your interpretation of the presentation.

3) You're also assuming that the students didn't benefit from being introduced to the presenting company. Another poster mentions that it was Frog Design, and if that's the case then it was probably to the benefit of the students as well; Frog Design's a good company.