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Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by novalis78 on Thursday February 26, 2015 @04:04PM (#9115474)
Wouldn't it be: "governments are prone to being co-opted by special interests, therefore we rather allow companies to compete with each other freely in an open market and let consumers make the choice"
Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by Karunamon on Thursday February 26, 2015 @04:18PM (#9115580)
Competition requires a "free open market", which isn't a thing that exists, and it depends on a knowledgeable and informed consumer base, which also isn't a thing that exists, and this all depends upon there being choice in the marketplace, which as has been demonstrated ad nauseum, also isn't a thing that exists.

Hence regulation.

Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by novalis78 on Thursday February 26, 2015 @06:08PM (#9116215)
What if the free market in telecommunication does not exist "yet" or is, due to a long history of regulation and government involvement, inhibited, we need to add another bureaucratic layer? If Google Fiber shows up in my neighborhood and Comcast did everything to upset us, would not we all switch and Comcast realize that it needs to adjust (its service, pricing, quality, speed)? I guess my difficulty lies in not understanding why this market warrants a different approach than any other market.
Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by Karunamon on Thursday February 26, 2015 @06:20PM (#9116255)
Two decades is a long time to set up a market, to be honest. And in that time, there have been fewer choices in the market, with smaller companies being regularly gobbled up into large conglomerates with astoundingly bad customer satisfaction the result.

or is, due to a long history of regulation and government involvement, inhibited

And this is really begging the question, in the fallacious sense.

Where does this "bureaucratic layer" argument come from? The only telcos that are going to be burdened by these regs are ones who are already doing shady stuff. In other words, the ones that need to be.

And on a more visceral and arational level? Fuck 'em. Fuck Comcast, fuck Verizon. They had years to get their house in order, and it wasn't regulation preventing them from doing so. It wasn't regulation that gives Comcast the worst customer satisfaction scores in the entire industry. It wasn't regulation that made Comcast's "capacity" problems magically disappear when Google Fiber shows up in the same city. It wasn't regulation that made Comcast acquire and abuse what amounts to a monopoly position. It wasn't regulation that made Verizon run what amounts to a protection racket on Netflix.

Nobody put a gun to the CEO's heads and said "be the biggest bastards you possibly can" - they managed to do that quite well with minimal government involvement.

Perhaps this market warrants a different approach because it's demonstrably broken and because the internet is more akin to infrastructure than a consumer good.

Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by novalis78 on Thursday February 26, 2015 @09:58PM (#9116941)
Stefan Molyneux came out with a one hour long video today - very detailed historic overview and discussion - of the government involvement that led to the current state of affairs (which beg for more government involvement, etc). Its worth watching it in its entirety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z_nBhfpmk4 Personally, I can't stand Comcast/Verizon/AT&T either, but I was born in Stasi East Germany. To me, the idea to further entrench government in what should be a completely free market place, seems backwards.
Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by Karunamon on Friday February 27, 2015 @12:42AM (#9117367)
A "completely free marketplace" will always tend towards a monopoly, and besides, that philosophy doesn't work when there are physical barriers to entry.
Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by afsina on Friday February 27, 2015 @02:57AM (#9117726)
No, Government intervention leads to a monopoly.
Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by baddox on Thursday February 26, 2015 @04:42PM (#9115710)
> it depends on a knowledgeable and informed consumer base, which also isn't a thing that exists

There's a comparable argument against democratic government somewhere in there.

Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by Karunamon on Thursday February 26, 2015 @04:46PM (#9115735)
Against the concept of democratic government, or against the implementation of a purely democratic government with no other additional regulations?

I think it's the same thing with the "free market". The general concept is sound, but there are corner cases that must be addressed. Infrastructure, I would argue, is one of those.

Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by baddox on Thursday February 26, 2015 @04:55PM (#9115816)
Against the concept of any government whose policies ostensibly reflect the preferences of the population and whose authority is ostensibly consented to by the population, which I believe includes most modern Western nation states.

According to mainstream Western theory (as I understand it), even aspects of policy which are not directly democratic or even routinely voted on by elected representative, like the Constitution, are justified as having legitimate authority because they are consented to by the governed.

In other words, even those "additional regulations" you mention, which I assume include things like basic human rights which are supposedly not subject to reversal by normal voting, are included in my broad usage of the phrase "democratic government."

Re:FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote by thoth on Thursday February 26, 2015 @05:46PM (#9116099)
That would be the ideal, but infrastructure issues such as this can't be handled by a "free market" acting all by itself.

That's because whoever owns the land the infrastructure runs through can block progress, and the free market solution of competing elsewhere doesn't work. Land access is inherently limited by real world access problems that don't obey free market ideology.

A free market for public utilities would start from the public, i.e. government, OWNING said infrastructure outright and then allowing private corporations to lease the right to use it to provide service. Only the government has the legal right to eminent domain so it can build roads and public utilities and generally seize land for the common good - private corporations would have to negotiate with every landowner whose property needs to be crossed, and that is obviously unworkable in the real world.

From the current situation - which is a hodge podge of municipal services, private corporate services, agreements that limit competition, coupled with land access needs only eminent domain can provide - the only way to arrive at this paradise of "free market competition" is for the government to nationalize the entire thing, void all contracts with private service providers, and recreate the rules to allow competition among service providers by renting/licensing the infrastructure that is owned by the public. Otherwise it would take decades for existing agreements to expire or be renegotiated, and any improvement still have to rely on access and easements and various forms of eminent domain anyway.

I cannot imagine the unending howling of the libertarian-type crowd if this were to happen. They complain that various governments have created this situation (municipalities giving exclusive deals to cable providers) but government power had to be there in the first place or there wouldn't be any infrastructure at all.