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Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tomp on Monday February 16, 2015 @01:05PM (#9058183)
Would you rather have a culture of 100% agreement? There are many different reasons why someone would write something like that in bad faith (mental illness, attention-seeking, etc.), it might be worth exploring such aspects (some stories fall apart under scrutiny, e.g. the UVA rape case). Also, I see nothing wrong with saying "she should loudly say 'did you just touch my boob?'", I think it would be beneficial if jerks were called out on shitty behavior more often.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by rmxt on Monday February 16, 2015 @02:12PM (#9058597)
Why should anyone ever be put in such a position where they even have to think of saying something like that? Your entire framing of the situation is exactly why it is a cultural issue. Why does sexual harassment have to devolve to physical interaction before it can be called out? Why is it "worth exploring" potentially discrediting aspects of the victim's stories, but not worth exploring the events that lead up to the story with good faith interpretations?
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tomp on Monday February 16, 2015 @03:38PM (#9058855)
> Why should anyone ever be put in such a position where they even have to think of saying something like that? Your entire framing of the situation is exactly why it is a cultural issue.

IMO, saying "it's a culture issue" is just wishful thinking, based on an assumption that there can ever exist a culture where all members are completely conformist and nobody is a "jerk". In reality, people will be selfish, and you will be put into positions where you need to stand your ground (in some way). The only thing that "culture" can do is exactly this - call out the jerks (in person or online), and other members of the "culture" agreeing that the behaviour is shitty.

> Why is it "worth exploring" potentially discrediting aspects of the victim's stories, but not worth exploring the events that lead up to the story with good faith interpretations?

I didn't say that. I just said that it's worth exploring both.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tptacek on Monday February 16, 2015 @01:08PM (#9058196)
Would you rather have a culture of 100% agreement?

About some things? Yes. A culture of 100% agreement about people of European descent not being superior to other races, for instance, is a good thing. There is such a thing as an unproductive disagreement, and even of toxic disagreements. An attempt to disagree about the role of Jewish people in international banking conspiracies, for instance, would be unwelcome.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Monday February 16, 2015 @10:08PM (#9060472)
What happens if these ideas are actually correct? Is it your desire for us to never learn certain truths?

It's interesting that you openly acknowledge this, as well as what I now realize was support for shaming people who ask naughty questions (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9057857). Most folks refuse to openly admit to this sort of anti-intellectualism, I'm glad to see it out in the open.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by rmxt on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @09:15AM (#9062274)
It's nice to know that there will always be someone around to ask the question, "But what if [insert superficially homogeneous ethnic/religious/race/gender/etc. group here] actually are inferior?", because that's typically what "naughty questions" boil down to. Dumb ideas backed by questionable science.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @09:47AM (#9062446)
That's hardly the extent of them. Others relevant to this conversation: "By what moral principle do we condemn the actions of the VC in this story?" "Do we find the story told by the OP to be plausible and a fair description of what happened?"

It's easier to call something a "dumb idea" and attack those discussing it than it is to actually refute it. Particularly when, as is the case here, there probably isn't much of a moral principle beyond "it makes me SOOO ANGRY".

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by rmxt on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @10:14AM (#9062615)
It's a bit of a sleight of hand to conflate "other relevant" questions with the one that tptacek posed above re: Jewish people and banking (which is the one that you replied to). I agree that the relevant questions you add are ones worth exploring in this scenario; however, they shouldn't come at the expense of ignoring the experiences of she who actually experienced it. The author of the article stated that she felt uneasy about how business was going down, and that she amended her plans so as to better reflect her sensibilities. What is implausible about that? Seek the answers to your questions all you want, but overlooking the answers to them in the submitted article is willful obstinacy.

Going back to the issue at hand, your so-called easy way out is exactly what tomp was doing upthread. To paraphrase both you and him, "It's easier to put forth reasons why someone would write something like that in bad faith (mental illness, attention-seeking, etc.) and attack those discussing it that it is to actually refute it [the ongoing marginalization of the experiences of women in tech]." Underhandedly calling into question the veracity of the author's retelling overlooks the larger gender issues in the work world and sidesteps the issue at hand. It's much easier to throw out the idea that she has a mental issue, than to realize that many on-going social norms make a swath of the tech population feel unwelcome. EDIT: The moral principle that you seek is between the lines of her writing.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @11:29AM (#9063115)
I don't have to agree with tomp's specific claims to disagree with tptacek's anti-intellectualism and demands for blind faith in his world view. They can both be wrong.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tptacek on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @07:20PM (#9066180)
I can't tell if you're trolling, or if you really do think my refusal to entertain the idea of a worldwide Jewish banking conspiracy is alarmingly anti-intellectual.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @08:08PM (#9066405)
I do find a desire for 100% agreement and 100% certainty on any topic anti-intellectual. Your first example is more troubling than the second, given that this assumption forms the basis of many logical chains [1].

Throw in things like "there's no way to interrogate her account without sounding like a creep", an unwillingness to define your terms, and generally calling anyone who disagrees with you a "nerd" (3x in this thread!), and yep - I stand by anti-intellectual.

[1] E.g., no racial group can be better at something than others, therefore any statistical disparity must be caused b pro-Asian discrimination.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tptacek on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @09:44PM (#9066721)
You're too smart not to know how fallacious this is. I think you're full of it.

I wouldn't particularly enjoy or appreciate a diligent effort to argue that women were inferior to men, but I would respond to its existence on some random page on the Internet by simply not reading it. At issue in this thread is an attempt to litigate issues like that in response to a complaint about sexual harassment.

It's not anti-intellectual to point out that there's a time and place for different discussions, and to point out the subtext that animates your decision to try to have that discussion here. You and 'tomp intrusively introduce this fake debate into threads like this, and I think you do it on purpose (albeit for different reasons).

If you want to act like a creep and demand that people consider that the author of this story might be irrational, unreasonable, or dishonest, you can do that. Just don't whine about it when you're called out for doing it.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @10:12PM (#9066789)
So you are unwilling to intellectually evaluate certain positions and want to lower the status of people ("creep", "nerd") who do. How is that not anti-intellectual? What, if anything, would qualify as anti intellectual in your view?

If you scroll up you'll see that I dont share tomp's skepticism. Stuff like this happens all the time, in and out of tech.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by tptacek on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @10:51PM (#9066874)
"Nerd" isn't an attempt to lower people's status. I'm a nerd too.

That aside: your comment isn't responsive to mine. You're just repeating the same point you made upthread.

Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by pen2l on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @02:14AM (#9061040)
yummyfajitas, I just wanted to chime in and say that even though historically I've disagreed with you on most issues, I have actually as of late begun to appreciate your vehement defense of your viewpoints (which more often than not go against the HN herd mentality). You make exchanges on HN fun and mentally interesting. Please keep doing what you're doing.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by aaren on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @08:50AM (#9062154)
Personally I find his exchanges tedious and draining, but to each their own.
Re:An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No by yummyfajitas on Tuesday February 17, 2015 @11:31AM (#9063124)
Thanks for your (public) support. Most people write such things to me privately, since they don't want the downvotes.