News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by joesmo on Friday February 06, 2015 @11:28AM (#9009724)
"Excellent answer up until paragraph three. Nothing will drive your developers (good and bad) away quicker than an a "quick morning standup", aka daily interrogation."

While it's far from the worst thing to drive developers away, I do agree a standup/scrum meeting every day is stupid, counterproductive, and just plain useless.

For the managers, they should be able to look at your ticketing/project system and know instantly what everyone is working on. Keeping tickets up to date is part of the job and really, it's not that hard.

For the programmers, they are now tasked with figuring out what to say in the standup and how to make sure that they are not perceived as not working when they really are. Programmers who need to know what other people are working on in the team can also look at the ticketing/project system and when they need more information (as in cases where their work depends on someone else), they will ask directly.

I've been to standup meetings in close to a dozen different companies, ranging from the smallest startup to some of the biggest tech companies and never have I ever seen a standup meeting end on time. NEVER. I don't think it actually happens. What I have seen is the meeting go on for half an hour to an hour, boring everyone out of their minds. Sometimes this even involved multiple teams whose work barely intersected at all. The other team's work status was a pure waste of time for anyone not on that team.

Yes, it is absolutely an interrogation. A daily standup shows that the manager doesn't trust his employees. He doesn't trust them to keep the ticketing/project system updated. He doesn't trust them to do work without the threat of being shamed and/or seen as lazy if the work done doesn't sound impressive in a standup. He doesn't trust them to seek help on their own. Basically, a daily standup is the sign of an incompetent manager.

Scrum is for rugby.

Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by zhte415 on Monday February 09, 2015 @09:12AM (#9021180)
> I've been to standup meetings in close to a dozen different companies, ranging from the smallest startup to some of the biggest tech companies and never have I ever seen a standup meeting end on time. NEVER. I don't think it actually happens.

I've never seen a huddle exceed 5 minutes. Ever. Even sit-down meetings, in large corps, rarely exceeded half an hour (Fortune 50 type companies).

I find the daily update hugely useful as a quick run-down into the changes in strategy happening, and as a chance to know the focus of what others are doing.

Perhaps I'm just lucky? Industry and location: Banking (UK); Finance and Technology (China).

Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by agilecoffee on Wednesday February 18, 2015 @06:23PM (#9071564)
I've experienced all range of standups. My current teams (I have two) both get in / get out in under 15 rather consistently. On occasion, parking lot items may extend beyond the 15-minute mark, but these are typically NOT requiring all team members' participation (so non-participants are free to leave). As a SM, I keep the team on track, reminding them to stick to the 3 questions and not much else (we do enjoy some banter - few teams take themselves so seriously that they don't allow any banter), but I keep the overall standup short, to the point and respectful of our time.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by jonstewart on Friday February 06, 2015 @11:45AM (#9009820)
A standup is for communication. "Here's what I'm working on, here's something cool I found out, Oh hey I have some code related to what you're working on, I need help, That sounds awesome, What a pain in the ass setting up VMs is", etc. I've actually found it's also a good way for the manager to communicate what s/he is doing, by participating as an equal. The standup should not devolve into the manager pointing a figure at each team member and asking them when they'll be done with a certain task.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by jmccree on Friday February 06, 2015 @12:09PM (#9009986)
In my personal opinion, if you need to set aside 15 minutes per day, killing at least 45 mins of productivity, for people to communicate, then your communication processes are broken. All of the things you mention could be communicated throughout the day in a team chat room. If someone needs help, they should send up a flare immediately via email or chat and get assistance as soon as someone is free.

In my personal experience, standups are practically useless if you have a team that has good communication practices. You know what people are working on from the ticket system, things are shared throughout the day as people work on chat, and if you do need some level of daily status report, having everyone email one in directly to the manager is the most efficient route.

Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by jonstewart on Friday February 06, 2015 @02:06PM (#9010870)
That's funny. Right now my colleagues and I are remote, and I really miss having a standup and often despair at using chat all day long. For me, it feels like an interruption throughout the day and frustratingly low bandwidth.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by joesmo on Friday February 06, 2015 @12:08PM (#9009982)
I do agree that communication is the intention, but in practice, that's just not how it plays out.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by jonstewart on Friday February 06, 2015 @02:07PM (#9010882)
I've never had a standup go on for longer than 15 minutes. Perhaps one of the ultimate takeaways for the OP is that there are N tools in the manager's toolbox, and N^N ways to abuse them.
Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by ricardobeat on Friday February 06, 2015 @09:30PM (#9012826)
As jonstewart said, the standup is for communication. In my team the morning standup will occasionally take less than a minute, a much shorter interruption than getting up for a cup of coffee. It makes me aware of what everybody else is working on and their progress, which I think is valuable.

If it acquires a have you done any work at all? vibe, you just fight it off with honesty. A half-hour standup is just insane. A large 'scrum of scrums' standup with dozens of people/teams shouldn't take longer than 15 minutes.

Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by automatthew on Friday February 06, 2015 @12:48PM (#9010328)
> I've been to standup meetings in close to a dozen different companies, ranging from the smallest startup to some of the biggest tech companies and never have I ever seen a standup meeting end on time. NEVER. I don't think it actually happens.

It's easy to sabotage standups in this manner by asking questions of others that you know will cause extended discussions. Especially on topics that have previously been "settled" by fiat.

Re:Ask HN: How to manage developers who aren't very good? by danielki on Friday February 06, 2015 @02:24PM (#9010988)
> I've been to standup meetings in close to a dozen different companies, ranging from the smallest startup to some of the biggest tech companies and never have I ever seen a standup meeting end on time. NEVER. I don't think it actually happens. What I have seen is the meeting go on for half an hour to an hour, boring everyone out of their minds. Sometimes this even involved multiple teams whose work barely intersected at all. The other team's work status was a pure waste of time for anyone not on that team.

A stand-up shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes per person, at the most. The thing that seems to help the most with this is to set aside a section of the whiteboard for the "Parking Lot". If the discussion starts getting off-topic or taking too long, the leader says "let's put this in the parking lot for now", makes a note of the topic on the whiteboard, and you move on to the next person. After the main part of the stand-up meeting is done, the Parking Lot is addressed, but only people who want to discuss it (or are needed for such discussion) need to stay.