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Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by CapitalistCartr on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @09:14AM (#8916976)
No one nowadays is going to make a delivery platform without considering (and optimizing) thermal, audio, and radar signatures. Stealth isn't a "technology" we apply; it's an accepted, fundamental part of design. That it isn't perfect, and that other nations are working to compromise it, isn't a reason to give up; it's the reality of any military technology. And there is always a compromise between different desired capabilities.
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by ObviousScience on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @09:20AM (#8917002)
Your comment doesn't reply to his argument, which in your terms, is that we should optimize for cheaper builds that are more visible over more expensive builds than are less visible (or rather, adjust the blend of the two we produce) since the price-per-visibility-decrease is becoming very high (for a number of reasons given in the article), since this optimization gives us the most military power for a given amount of investment.
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by CapitalistCartr on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @09:30AM (#8917053)
There is no indication we are actually doing this. The US Air Force is spending ever more per airframe. My point is that his reasoning is flawed as per my prior comment. Military equipment integrates technology and moves on, playing an eternal game of leapfrog with the opponents. Stealth isn't going anywhere.
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by dingaling on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @09:37AM (#8917089)
> The US Air Force is spending ever more per airframe.

Except at the lower-end, where Super Tucanos, AH-64s and A-10s dominate. That environment is a numbers game, not a platform-capability game.

Notice how Comanche was cancelled in favour of continued Kiowa / Apache teams; stealth undermined by cost. The US Army saw the future ahead of most others and stealth wasn't it.

> Stealth isn't going anywhere.

For Tier 1 platforms I agree. For everything else, and everyone else outside the top 10 spenders, it's a nice-to-have afterthought.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by smacktoward on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @12:08PM (#8917916)
After their dismal performance in the Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_attack_on_Karbala), I dunno if I'd point to the Apache as an example of how stealth isn't necessary...
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by pinaceae on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:49AM (#8917455)
the blackhawk used in the raid on bin laden had stealth capabilities.

my guess is that stealth now includes keeping it out of public's knowledge, to minimize risk.

with helos sound comes into play as well, as detection comes down to human ears if used in rescue or raid situations.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by smacktoward on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @12:01PM (#8917873)
But stealth, at least in its current form, isn't something that can simply be integrated without making substantial concessions elsewhere in the design. You lose the ability to mount stores on hardpoints on the wing, for example. That reduces the variety of munitions the aircraft is able to carry, which in turn makes it less flexible and adaptable to new missions.

Your argument that stealth is just the way things are now implies that stealth, as a feature, is more valuable than the features you have to give up to get it. The article is arguing the opposite -- that stealth is less and less valuable as radar technology improves to counter it, so maybe it's not worth giving up that other stuff to have it. You disagree, that's fine, but that in and of itself doesn't make their reasoning "flawed" and thus able to be ruled out with a wave of the hand and a jaunty "stealth isn't going anywhere."

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by jepper on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @09:37AM (#8917090)
The complexity of the weapon systems goes up, and so does the price. The F-35 design already accepted a decrease in stealth capability, over for example the F22, to reduce price. Networking, sensor integration and related tactics is another revolution in progress that the F-35 does have. It's hugely expensive to be the first one to develop this.
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by WillNotDownvote on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:14AM (#8917245)
Are drones stealth? After all, they're now doing much of the day-to-day work that used to be done by piloted craft.

From my very casual outsider view, it looks like manned platforms are indeed becoming more expensive, but unmanned platforms are much cheaper and taking over much of the work.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by SEJeff on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @04:08PM (#8919591)
So I can speak to this with a bit of authority seeing as how I accrued approximately 480 combat flight hours on the Shadow 200 UAV in Operation Iraqi Freedom II circa 2003-2004.

When we were doing our pre-war certification for desert combat, we had a chance to train right next to an anti-aircraft battery. We wanted to know the detectability of the Shadow at mission altitude so we could adjust things to keep from getting shot down. For those that don't know, the Shadow 200 (RQ-7A, now superseded by a bigger model), is built out of a carbon fiber composite with radar absorbing paint. The engine vents exhaust to the top backwards directly into the propellor, which does a wonderful job of breaking up the heat signature. It is approximately 11'x13'. Anyways the shadow is small and was meant to have a very low detectability factor. After the AV is a few thousand feet above the ground, you can either see nor hear it. Our own patriot anti aircraft battery was unable to detect it at mission altitude without setting their gear's sensitivity up night enough to detect large birds, which is totally impractical.

So was the Shadow built to be stealth like a B2 or F117? Nope. Is it effectively stealth when flying missions at several thousand feet above the ground? Yup! Go the the Wikipedia page for "Ground Control Station" which has a picture of me in the back of a Shadow GCS sometime around 2001.

Now the bigger stuff such as the predator / reaper / global hawk? They have much larger cross signatures, but they are more capable platforms. The shadow only had an approximately 6-7 hour in-air endurance.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by ethbro on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:04AM (#8917545)
From the article:

"In addition, a new generation of low cost, reusable, and ultimately disposable UNMANNED [emphasis added] systems can help invert the cost imposition of A2/AD networks by overwhelming an enemy’s ability to engage at favorable cost exchanges."

I'm curious as to whether you can conceivably build effective aerial platforms for cheaper than you can build missiles to knock them down, but I'd imagine you could do so with decoy drones.

I believe the unmanned part is key for enabling this -- hopefully no one would have ever suggested fielding survivability-inferior but numerically-superior manned force as a viable strategic aim...

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by VLM on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:44AM (#8917737)
"hopefully no one would have ever suggested fielding survivability-inferior but numerically-superior manned force as a viable strategic aim..."

Every wartime opponent of the USA for the last half century that we've lost to, has eventually won using that exact strategy. Its kind of expensive, but everyone who tries it, beats us eventually.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by smacktoward on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @12:07PM (#8917906)
Not to mention that both we and the Russians used it to beat the Germans rather handily in World War 2. It was well known that the M4 Sherman tank was a less survivable fighting platform than the German Tiger or Panther, for instance, but the Tiger was so complex to build that American industry could turn out more than ten Shermans for each Tiger the Germans built. One on one a Sherman had no chance against a Tiger, but against five or seven or ten Shermans even the Tiger would eventually be overwhelmed.
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by ethbro on Thursday January 22, 2015 @12:50PM (#8930509)
Or, to phrase it another way, the Allied forces (and the Soviets) could afford to include this "extra" armor organically in lower-level formations. As opposed to the Germans who were forced to concentrate their relatively-scarce armor exclusively in mechanized formations.

Everyone always thinks about the consequences of the above as 5 Shermans (or T-34s) vs. 1 Tiger. But the more important distinction was likely 2 Shermans + infantry vs. 0 Panthers + infantry.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by quanticle on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @12:58PM (#8918290)
It's always a tradeoff in aerospace, but I think what the article is arguing is that we give up too much for stealth. For example, the incompatibility of stealth and external hardpoints on aircraft causes a significant increase in both the unit cost of aircraft as well as a significant decrease in mission capability. With external hardpoints, launching a missile or bomb is merely just a matter of letting ordnance fall away from the aircraft. Without them, you have to invest in complicated launcher mechanisms (i.e. the F-22's crazy pneumatic system for pushing missiles outside of the plane before firing them). In addition, the fact that all stores have to be carried internally means that each aircraft can carry far less in the way of weapons or fuel. This then leads to knock-on costs, like increased requirements for tankers. And if the value of stealth is constantly being eroded by new radars and other detection technologies, then I think the article is asking a fair question. Is the US best served by stealth aircraft (like the F-22 and the F-35)? Or would we be better served by a supermaneuverable "4.5 gen" fighter along the lines of the Su-35 or Su-37 that is cheaper to build, cheaper to operate, and has greater mission flexibility than our "next-gen" planes?
Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by Retric on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @02:59PM (#8919117)
The US air force has two very different missions.

First is to quickly crush a nations standing military. This is where the stealth tradeoffs are less useful. Basically, just blow up anything that uses radar and you win.

The second is to patrol territory. Here stealth can be very useful as you tend to deal with far less capable radar and missile systems. But, they tend to be vary mobile so while there minimal threat at a military level they are a serious ‘let’s not show up on CNN’ issue.

Considering the actual missions flown over the last 50 years I think the Air force’s priorities are much more reasonable.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by quanticle on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @05:13PM (#8920020)
>Considering the actual missions flown over the last 50 years I think the Air force’s priorities are much more reasonable.

That is a very, very difficult point to defend. The vast majority of USAF missions over the past 50 years have been CAS missions against ground forces, not jet-against-jet duels against other air superiority fighters. Yet, if you look at the design priorities of not just the current state-of-the-art fighters, but even previous-gen fighters like the the F-15, F-16 and the F-18, you'll see that they privilege air-to-air combat capability over air-to-ground.

IMHO, the only plane in the USAF's inventory that's actually suited for the missions the USAF is actually flying is the A-10. And if you look at the A-10's history, you'll see that the USAF leadership fought tooth and nail against the program (it was essentially forced on the USAF by the Army), and at every feasible opportunity they've tried to retire the airframe.

Stealth isn't magic. Stealth doesn't make you invisible. Stealth is, at best, a very sophisticated camouflage that makes your plane harder to see with radar at a distance, and its advantages end the moment your plane starts shooting. Contra your point, stealth is actually most suited for the "blitzkrieg" style missions which are designed to crush enemy air forces in the opening days of an engagement. That's actually what it was designed for. The F-22 (and other stealth aircraft) were designed to wipe out Soviet aircraft and air-defense systems in the opening days of WW3, at which point more conventional fighters (like F-4s, F-15s and A-10s) would do the majority of the "grunt work" of wiping out Soviet ground armor.

Stealth is far less suited for the kinds of "patrol" missions where your planes are going to be flying the same airspace day and day out, supporting ground troops or enforcing a no-fly zone. As the evidence from the F-117 shootdown in Yugoslavia demonstrates, all the camouflage in the world won't help you if your enemy is able to deduce where you will be based on your past activity. Stealth is poorly suited for close-air support missions, where you're flying close to enemy troops, for long periods of time, and shooting at them on a regular basis.

The Air Force's priorities have not been reasonable, by any rational measure, nor have they been reasonable for quite some time now. The Air Force should be investing in developing UAVs and the accompanying swarm tactics that allow for effective use of large numbers (e.g. 100+) aircraft in a combat theater. Instead, they're blowing billions of dollars on a "unified" combat aircraft that can't actually perform any of the roles it's supposed take over.

EDITS: Added points and restructured for clarity.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by Retric on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @04:41PM (#8925958)
Drones are ideal for day to day ground support.

Cheap, high loiter time the cost is low speed so they have to already be in country. And the Air force has been buying a lot of drones. Manned fighters are currently much better for patrolling large areas of airspace and maintaining air superiority.

As to swarms picture the minimum drone that can hit a target that’s traveling at 2.5 times the speed of sound at 65,000 feet. Now how many of those do you need to patrol say the entire US border. Don't get me wrong the swarm concept is useful, the only problem is the minimum useful airframe vs modern fighers is not tiny.

Ps: This is of course highly simplified. Cruise missiles are great at dismantling vary high value targets, but there also vary pricey and can’t loiter.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by mgarfias on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @03:01PM (#8919125)
We’d be better served by a horde of highly specialized drones. Have CAS drones, fighter drones, attack drones for the anti-sam role, etc.

They won’t have to be super stealthy, and will be tons cheaper than a manned platform, which gives the ability to throw them away at a problem.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by quanticle on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @05:18PM (#8920041)
Amen. Unfortunately, the Air Force culture, from its leadership down to its rank-and-file is one that emphasizes the individual heroism of fighter aces, so I'm not confident in the Air Force's ability to internally reform itself towards a more UAV-centric warfighting model.

I feel like the people crowing about unparalleled air-combat superiority of the USAF today are similar to the people who crowed about the impregnability of the Maginot Line in 1936. They're correct, but the point will be rendered moot by new technology and new tactics.

Re:A Cold War Legacy: The Decline of Stealth by rdtsc on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:27AM (#8917649)
> No one nowadays is going to make a delivery platform without considering (and optimizing) thermal, audio, and radar signatures

Sure it is not an all or nothing. What the article is claiming is that investing hundreds of billions into it at this point then hundreds of millions per unit is stupid because even older Russian UHF, VHF radar can detect those. Now they can't be used for targeting as much but that has improved, even the Chinese caught on and developed their own UHF/VHF radar.