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Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by pm24601 on Thursday January 01, 2015 @01:52PM (#8823775)
Yes you should. You are following the rules and no doubt at a cost.

You should report him for the same reason that you should report a competitor that is dumping toxic waste in a stream.

They are externalizing costs to society as a whole to maximize their gain.

There is no malice is demanding that everyone respect the law that safeguards us all.

If the competitor does not wish to follow the law then they can move to a locale that does not have that law.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by icebraining on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:01PM (#8823816)
PCI is not a law, it's an industry standard. Only a couple of states legally mandate compliance to PCI DSS.

I agree OP should report them, though.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by click170 on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:03PM (#8823825)
This is true, but if the competitor is advertising PCI compliance and is not providing that, their consumers have a right to know that they are not getting what they paid for.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by dublinclontarf on Thursday January 01, 2015 @04:47PM (#8824463)
He would lose his ability to process credit cards, possibly having bank accounts closed etc.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by icebraining on Thursday January 01, 2015 @05:35PM (#8824597)
Immediately? Wouldn't they give them a "second chance" to implement the necessary changes?
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by briandear on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:36PM (#8823964)
I think it's a dick move. It's like calling the cops because your neighbor is smoking pot in their garage. The activity isn't harming you, it only "harms" the people with a relationship with the company. If it were me, I'd likely use the competitor's lack of PCI compliance as a tool for my own marketing -- I wouldn't even use the competitor's name, but do something like "Unlike many of our competitors <my_awesome_product> is fully PCI compliant because we care about your security." Turn the "weakness" of the competitor into your strength. But reporting him to the authorities? That's very Stasi-esque.

Unless a law is being broken AND it's creating an unsafe situation for your customers or your company, leave it alone. In my opinion it's a classless move to go after your competitors in that fashion. Beat them with a better product. In this case, a "better" product would seem to be one with PCI compliance.

As far as the "toxic waste" analogy -- I've never heard of anyone getting cancer and dying from a lack of PCI compliance. In fact, there are likely more important things to worry about than PCI compliance -- Target and all of the other high profile retailers that were credit-card hacked -- they were all allegedly PCI compliant, yet it still didn't do much good. I'm not hear to debate the value of PCI compliance -- if it's a requirement of your business, then obviously you have to do it. But I am debating the ethics of reporting a competitor for an activity that is NOT illegal, nor is it directly harming your customers or your business.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by tzs on Thursday January 01, 2015 @03:52PM (#8824263)
> Target and all of the other high profile retailers that were credit-card hacked -- they were all allegedly PCI compliant, yet it still didn't do much good.

How do you conclude that it didn't do much good? The Target breach involved installing malware on the point-of-sale terminals to grab the data as the customer was paying.

As far as I know, the attackers didn't get to the stored credit card data. I suspect that they didn't get to that data in large part because Target was mostly in PCI compliance, meaning that the stored data was encrypted, on database servers isolated from the databases not involved in payment processing, on separate networks with strong access restrictions.

If Target had been treating PCI the way OP's competitor is, the Target breach could have been much much much worse.

> But I am debating the ethics of reporting a competitor for an activity that is NOT illegal, nor is it directly harming your customers or your business.

For a small business that is doing its own credit card storage, PCI compliance costs can be significant. They can easily double or triple the number of boxes you need at the data center.

The competitor is saving a lot of money by completely ignoring credit card security, which gives him an unfair advantage over OP. I'd consider that sufficient harm to OP to justify taking action.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by jacquesm on Thursday January 01, 2015 @04:08PM (#8824322)
Your underlying assumption is that they are doing this to save costs or that there is malice involved. I see no evidence of that, merely either incompetence or a company struggling to get with the times or built at a time when this stuff wasn't so much on the radar as it is today.

That happens a lot and there are ways to deal with it, ratting out your competitors to authorities with silent hopes of crippling them and taking their business in the name of protecting the consumer is bad form at best and will come back to bite you hard at worst.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by tzs on Thursday January 01, 2015 @05:00PM (#8824497)
I don't think I made such an assumption. He's saving money, regardless of whether ignoring credit card security was an intentional money saving move, or merely a happy side effect of ignorance or incompetent.

The person I was responding to was taking the position that you should not take against against someone if they are not harming you. That money saving, regardless of how it came about, harms OP's business, and so justifies action.

Note I didn't say the action should be calling authorities. Contacting the competitor and letting him know there is a problem would be action, too.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by mst on Thursday January 01, 2015 @04:49PM (#8824469)
I concur. I once wrote code (happily long since retired) that stored credit card numbers unencrypted.

It wasn't about cost cutting. It was about me being young and foolish (and, looking back, I'm not sure it's even the stupidest mistake I've deployed to production in my career, but I'm not sure I want to admit to the other candidates just now :).

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by tptacek on Thursday January 01, 2015 @07:55PM (#8825016)
Encrypted card storage is just 1 of 12 PCI DSS security controls.

Also: if you want to delve into counterfactuals, consider what most PCI-compliant encrypted card storage schemes look like. Design a straw-man system yourself. You'll see the problem within minutes of starting. Remember that any cryptographic engineering that requires even a minute's worth of 'tzs cleverness is probably utterly beyond the raw capability of a line-of-business programmer at a major retail chain.

To the parent commenter's point, it's worth making a list of the 5 largest credit card breaches of the last 5 years and noting who provided their PCI attestation; you may find the result interesting.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by tzs on Friday January 02, 2015 @04:08AM (#8826120)
What most struck me about PCI compliance is how far and how wide its tentacles ended up reaching beyond the obvious places.

For instance, suppose you allow orders over the telephone. A customer can call, talk to a salesperson, and then place an order. The customer will read their credit card information over the phone and the salesperson will enter it into the ordering system.

If your phone system is a VOIP system, congratulations! It's in scope for PCI! Since you probably don't want to have to deal with PCI for every phone in the company, you'll probably end up having to segment your system, so you can restrict sales calls to one segment.

If you are recording some sales calls so that managers can review them for training purposes, you either have to find a way to not record the parts of calls where credit card numbers are read, or you have to treat the recording as sensitive cardholder data and encrypt it. You might think you could just encrypt all the recordings and be done with it. Sadly, that's not good enough, because of the CSC code. You are not allowed to store the CSC code even if you do encrypt it.

Some people implement a system whereby the salesperson can press a button when the customer is about the give sensitive information, and that pauses recording for a few seconds. From what I've read, this is NOT sufficient for PCI compliance.

There are some approaches (aside from giving up on recording) that appear to be acceptable.

1. There is a system called CallGuard [1]. You integrate this with your phone system and your order entry system. When it is time for the caller to enter their card number and CSC, they do so with their phone keypad instead of by voice. CallGuard blocks the touch tones from the recording, interprets them, and enters them into your order system.

2. You can make it so that when a salesperson brings up the card number and CSC entry form, that automatically pauses recording until the form is submitted.

3. You can temporarily transfer the call to an interactive voice response system that gets the numbers and puts them in your order form, and then transfers the customer back to you.

Next up--email! A customer's recurring payment fails because they did not update their account when they got a new card. Your system sends them an email. The customer wants to update their card in response. Some will try to do this by email. They will fire of an email to your support address that tells you they have a new card and includes the number.

Now you've got a credit card number stored in the mailboxes of everyone who receives copies of support requests, and you'll have to do something about this. At least with a credit card in a mailbox, it's likely to be in a fairly standard and documented format.

If your company is big enough to have outgrown handling support requests by having a "support" mailbox that all your support people read, you probably have some kind of help desk system, and that's where that customer email with the credit card number ends up. So now you find yourself digging around in some big PHP codebase, and poking around a MySQL database that has a couple hundred tables whose names make no sense to you, trying to figure out how tickets are stored and what you have to do to modify a ticket to mask the credit card.

And somewhere in here, you should be thinking about how you will write a script to scan for these things, so you don't have to rely on support people noticing them and calling them to your intention. You'll have fun discovering the various ways people can vary the formatting of credit card numbers. When you make your credit card number recognizer handle enough weird formatting to work well, then you'll find someone that gave you a zip code (5 digits), and a phone number including the '1' for long distance, and formatted those so weirdly that your credit card recognizer flagged them.

...and let's not forget about chat. If you do support via chat, you will have people typing in credit card numbers. If you are lucky, your chat system is part of your help desk system, and so while you were reverse engineering that to deal with credit card numbers in ticket, you happened to figure out where and how it stores chat logs.

If you do NOT automate dealing with email and chat, at some point a support person is going to bring to your attention a ticket or chat log with a credit card number, and you'll go into the database and fix it. If you are lucky, the support people noticed it quickly. If you are unlucky, it was sitting there for a while--and so it is now on your backups.

[1] http://www.callguard.co

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by pc86 on Thursday January 01, 2015 @05:35PM (#8824595)
> The activity isn't harming you, it only "harms" the people with a relationship with the company.

This is not true. As a vendor, I assume costs associated with PCI compliance and other industry-standard best practices. If my competitor is ignoring these I am fundamentally disadvantaged. It's not an equal marketplace at that point.

Whether intentional on the competitor's part or not, this is saving them money and placing their customers at risk of identity theft, financial fraud and who knows what else depending on what's stored in that database.

> But reporting him to the authorities? That's very Stasi-esque.

Holy hyperbole, Batman. As a customer, I deserve to know if my vendor is eschewing industry-standard security practices. And they should be mercilessly shamed if they are.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by icebraining on Thursday January 01, 2015 @03:07PM (#8824085)
The activity isn't harming you, it only "harms" the people with a relationship with the company

Actually, no. If the CC numbers are used fraudulently, the clients of that company will just issue chargebacks; at most, they'll need to get new cards. The people who'll have to pay are the merchants who will get hit with those chargebacks - and indirectly everyone else, since prices are raised to pay for those losses.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by philwelch on Thursday January 01, 2015 @05:00PM (#8824499)
While PCI compliance might not be as important as dumping toxic waste, it's sure as hell more important than whether you smoke pot in your garage.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by chrischen on Thursday January 01, 2015 @03:06PM (#8824082)
I think it's a dick move to only care about something when it affects yourself.

Are you advocating that unless you're black, you shouldn't have supported (or got involved with) the black civil rights movement?

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by vcarl on Thursday January 01, 2015 @03:06PM (#8824083)
It may not be harming YOUR customers, but I don't agree with the premise that you only have an ethical obligation to protect the people paying you. The competitor's bad practice vastly increases their customer's risk of having their cards stolen, not only by people who break through the "security", but also by disgruntled employees.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by altron on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:03PM (#8823822)
Thank you for your support.

Edit:: I have not made up my mind yet. Admittedly, at the time of posting I was leaning more toward that side.

After reading everyone's advice, I'm leaning more toward a multi-tiered approach as @jacquesm suggested. It seems to avoid bad karma and burning bridges. Also, it seems as though the PCI Industry rarely acts on reports. So, working with the competitor to fix their issues could be the best thing down the road. It's a very small industry, and the possibility of a buy-out could exist in a few years.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by cypher543 on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:25PM (#8823925)
It sounds like you've already made up your mind and are just looking for people to agree with you.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by hkailahi on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:48PM (#8824019)
This is the vibe I was getting, which is unfortunate. Of course I'm only speculating.

Similarly, I find it to be insanely frustrating when people ask for advice, but are not willing to listen when they get it. It feels dishonest.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by nitrogen on Thursday January 01, 2015 @06:22PM (#8824743)
Not agreeing with advice doesn't mean the recipient didn't listen to or appreciate it.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by hkailahi on Thursday January 01, 2015 @06:49PM (#8824822)
A recipient could have listened. A recipient could have not listened. I still think it is dishonest when it is someone's intention to fish for agreements. I originally speculated as to whether this was the case, and he/she has said otherwise.
Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by ScottBurson on Thursday January 01, 2015 @08:48PM (#8825151)
(a) TALK TO A LAWYER FIRST

(b) It seems to me that the customer in question is in a much better position to file a complaint than you are. I can't see anything wrong (but see (a)) with writing them a detailed letter explaining the implications of what you found during the transfer. They will probably not want to act on it, but if they do, they can't be accused of ulterior motives.

(c) You could try the tack of advertising very loudly that you're PCI compliant, without ever mentioning your competitor. (Is there third-party PCI certification? If so, you might want to get it.) Yes, everyone who handles credit cards is supposed to be PCI compliant, but customers don't necessarily know that; you could perhaps make it a differentiator. If your competitor is so unscrupulous as to advertise themselves as compliant when they're not, possibly (see (a)) you could then report them yourself.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by MichaelGG on Thursday January 01, 2015 @04:45PM (#8824453)
Don't be under the impression that reporting a PCI violation will matter. They'll just apply a bandage if anyone looks into it. The real risk is if they have a breach, then they'll be liable for more fines. I know businesses that are very successful and ignore PCI. One even sold for a large amount of money. They implemented BrainTree in a week to solve a due diligence issue. No big deal. Sure, if they'd been hacked it'd have really hurt, but they weren't and now have FU money.

For it to actually really hurt your competitor, you'd have to probably astroturf some forums, acting like concerned customers, and get other customers upset. And even then, you're just going to cost them a week or so. Maybe if you timed it for maximum damage, but just don't waste too much time on it.

Re:Ask HN: Should I report my main competitor for PCI Violat... by 88e282102ae2e5b on Thursday January 01, 2015 @02:07PM (#8823842)
I thought PCI compliance wasn't necessarily legally required, just that it was a contractual agreement between your company and the payment processor?

Regardless, I still feel reporting is the ethical thing to do.