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Re:Bad Microsoft by fsloth on Sunday December 14, 2014 @11:47AM (#8748710)
Good point. The act or programming is comparable to writing or simple arithmetic.

However, where things get complex is when we reach the systems-design level. Doctors need ten years of studying to be qualified. I would claim that you need at least that much of programming to be really qualified for a position where the evolution of an expensive system depends on the intuitive design decisions you perform on the spot.

The cost of unskilled medical practice are localized and can result in large costs and an individual tragedy.

The cost of unskilled systems design practice can be spread temporally over several years, result in large organizational costs in maintenance and small tragedies for the poor bastards who have to maintain the system.

While I do not suggest comparing the economic risks are a good key metric in computing a professionals pay check I think it should be a part of the equation. It's really hard for me to figure out who has more financial risks tied to their profession, the systems designer or the doctor.

If we continue the risks analysis one could say a regular lorry driver can easily cause as much in damages with careless driving. However, in the case of the lorry driver learning to do a proper job does not take ten years.

Edit: Auch, the downvotes, they hurt. I was trivializing a bit with the comparison to arithmetic. What I should have said is 'a fundamental skill applicable to many domains just like arithmetic or writing.

Re:Bad Microsoft by matwood on Sunday December 14, 2014 @12:51PM (#8748926)
The act or programming is comparable to writing or simple arithmetic.

I have interviewed many people who claim to know programming, but can't program. These same people I think could read and do simple arithmetic.

Like many things, once you know how to do it, it looks easy. I never understood why people have a hard time with pointers, recursion or dependency injection, but many people do. Programming is not some impossible to learn skill, but it does require dedication, a level of abstract thinking not often found in other disciplines, and logic. Reducing programming to writing or arithmetic is maybe true for simple Excel macros, but not what most people on this site would consider programming.

Re:Bad Microsoft by fsloth on Sunday December 14, 2014 @01:25PM (#8749051)
Is the 8 year old doing Scratch exercises not programming? I would claim she is. The difference we want to make then, is between 'simple' programming and complex systems level programming.

I claim both can provide value. Even simple programming can be used to automate domain specific tasks that will reduce the amount of manual labour required, freeing the professional to other tasks and thus increase their productivity.

Programming in a professional setting has thus at least two facets - a tool to create new systems and a tool to automate existing ones. I would claim both tasks are programming but with dramatically different mechanisms for adding value.

"Reducing programming to writing or arithmetic is maybe true for simple Excel macros, but not what most people on this site would consider programming."

Yeah, I went overboard with simplification there. The difference I wanted to communicate (but failed) was between the human requirements for entry level scripting and actual systems programming as the post I responded to stated programming did not have the same economies of scarcity as skills in medicine. I would have been more correct to state that programming is more like arithmetic than medicine in the sense that both novice and experts alike can provide added value through the act of programming but in widely different circumstances.

I'm a professional software engineer but my wife with a PhD in physics 'just happens' to write Matlab scripts in her day job as an R&D engineer to chew through terabytes of production data in an indusrial setting so I think I have a pretty good view to these different kinds of domains :)

Re:Bad Microsoft by matwood on Sunday December 14, 2014 @02:00PM (#8749168)
I think a lot of what we call simple programming today will just be expected knowledge for most people in a short amount of time. Doing Scratch exercises or writing a macro will not make me a future person a programmer in the same way doing some simple math does not make me today a mathematician.
Re:Bad Microsoft by zxcvcxz on Sunday December 14, 2014 @12:03PM (#8748763)
I agree for the most part, but I don't believe that the people who design critical software are being screwed by their employer. They also make up a fairly small segment of what's considered "programmers" imo. I'd say the vast majority of programming is web/mobile applications which I would argue takes about six months to learn and maybe two years to get pretty good at it.
Re:Bad Microsoft by fsloth on Sunday December 14, 2014 @12:59PM (#8748955)
Considering how many software projects have ended as major screw ups I would claim that there are instances where the employer and/or the programmer are clueless about how much skilled design efforts they would really need.

So I would not worry about systems designers being screwed for low pay. Rather I find those situations problematic where employer does not realize they would need systems design nor know what it would look like in the first place.

Having some sort of "guild verified" systems designer licence might alleviate those situations by making the client realize the thingamajic they are ordering might need systems design and would actually require it in the contract. Would it help really? I don't know but it would bring clarity to the profession-client interface by making the client more aware of the skills needed to implement the contract successfully.

Re:Bad Microsoft by shamney on Sunday December 14, 2014 @12:25PM (#8748839)
it is not the same writing or simple arithmetic for most people. this sort of comment is exactly what the original post was talking about -- programmers are often unable to imagine other people will struggle with tasks they take for granted.
Re:Bad Microsoft by fsloth on Sunday December 14, 2014 @12:38PM (#8748885)
Ok, I was exaggerating a bit just to contrast it with stuff that really needs experience - "Hello world" vs. Linux kernel, so to speak. But really, programming is something people can pick up while doing something else. Not systems programming, mind you, but Python, Matlab or such they pick up from labs or programming 101 which they find after graduation is employing them while extending a one domain specific system or another.

Let me rephrase this, anecdotally STEM inclined people can pick up programming at an adult age far easier than they would e.g. reading and writing or playing a musical instrument.

Can everyone do this - I don't know.