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Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:04AM (#864284)
>> "Stallman sees proprietary software as a violation of fundamental freedoms, like slavery is a violation of fundamental freedoms."

See this is the insane part. How can anyone believe that? No one forces you to use their proprietary software. If you don't like proprietary software, write your own equivalent software and use that. (Of course these days it's sometimes hard to get your own software onto devices, but rarely is it impossible).

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by _csoo on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:18PM (#864490)
Actually, thanks to market forces and monopolies of various sorts, you are eventually forced to use proprietary software. The example someone else gave was Microsoft Office file formats.

Here's a better example: almost all webdesign, graphic design, and other jobs of that type want you to have experience in Adobe products. So what ends up happening is that because people want the jobs, they learn Photoshop. Now it may be a great program, but it's still proprietary and you get locked into Adobe's upgrade cycle because the latest version is The Industry Standard...always, it's fucked up how that works really.

So if someone has had experience with the GIMP or some other free software, and can do the work just as well as a Photoshop user, their resume will be dumped because the Adobe name has a lot of weight. That someone will then figure out that to get a job, they'll also have to use proprietary software.

You don't live in a vacuum where you can do what you want.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by cschwarm on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @04:58PM (#865232)
True. But what makes you think you are entitled to do what you what?

Getting a job has obviously benefits for you, otherwise you would no try to get it. But there are also always costs.

These costs include wasting time on learning how to design in the first place and quite a lot of other activities. And it may also include to get a Photoshop license.

After all, you are not required to use it for your private stuff, too!

Also, these "market forces and monopolies of various sorts" hold true for "free" software: If I'd like to get a job as a sys admin, I may have to deal with Apache and Samba althought I really, really hate it!

Where's my right of not being required to deal with Apache and Samba?

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by Daishiman on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:31AM (#864359)
For software in education, for the state, or being used to access computerized tools needed for governance it certainly is a problem. If I can't access a government website because it's build to conform to the standards of a proprietary browser then it's everyone's problem. Same with using proprietary office applications or patent-encumbered formats.

The fact that a lot of public records are stored only to be used in proprietary software is a disturbing trend.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by fnid on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:49AM (#864417)
The output of a system and the system itself are two different things. It doesn't matter if the code powering that government website is open or not, you can't access that code.

You're arguing two different things here.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by Daishiman on Wednesday October 07, 2009 @07:44AM (#866521)
A closed system cannot be modified at the whim of the organization that uses it if it is closed. It implies vendor dependence. With FOSS you have vendor independence and greater competition, plus promoting the local industry by not having to depend on the IBMs and Microsofts of the world for your software support.
Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by iambvk on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:15AM (#864302)
Sounds right, but until a friend of you sends a .doc or .ppt file as an attachment.
Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:21AM (#864324)
That's a separate issue about file formats and whether they should be closed or open. Whole different argument.

You can have closed proprietary programs and have completely open standard file formats.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by iambvk on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:58AM (#864438)
You just said, "No one forces you to use their proprietary software." and I gave an example. Of course, it is not forcing, you can stay not opening the attachment, suppress the curiosity.

Yes, file formats /can/ be seen as a different issue, but its often the reason I end up using proprietary programs.

One can have a closed program with a open file format, but not an open program with a proprietary file format, why? Doesn't it suggest an interesting link between proprietary programs and proprietary file formats? Do you still think they are really independent issues?

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:12PM (#864476)
>> "Of course, it is not forcing, you can stay not opening the attachment, suppress the curiosity."

Exactly. So comparing it to slavery is ridiculous.

You're right though, they are interlinked. Still, no one is forcing anyone to use proprietary software.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by omouse on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:23PM (#864509)
The comparison to slavery may not be very good, I agree.

However, he is making a valid point and you are neglecting to see it.

Not everyone is a super-man that can ignore the influences of their environment. We have to deal with other people and their sometimes strange ideas and you're assuming that we don't, or at least you're assuming that there are no negative consequences for ignoring the rest of the environment and doing what you want.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @02:03PM (#864778)
>> "or at least you're assuming that there are no negative consequences for ignoring the rest of the environment and doing what you want."

You're right. I don't think there are. But then I'm completely against the minimum wage for similar reasons. You're not forced to get a particular job.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by gloob on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:06PM (#864466)
You can have closed proprietary programs and have completely open standard file formats.

Sure, but can you have open free programs and closed, locked-down, proprietary formats? It's a separate issue, perhaps, but it's a very closely related one.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by tjr on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:47PM (#864569)
With difficulty. There is free software that can work with proprietary formats, but those formats have to be reverse-engineered, and if the formats change, they have to be reverse-engineered again.
Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by donaq on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @11:52AM (#864424)
If rms or someone like him had never been born and the free software movement had never been started, with what would you have written your "equivalent software"? Borland C++?
Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:09PM (#864469)
What he did was impressive, but anyone could have done the same.

I don't think the field of writing software has many true geniuses really. We're all just cranking out code.

Coming up with new algorithms is impressive, but churning out code is less so IMHO.

Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by donaq on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @12:27PM (#864523)
I don't think just anyone could have done the same, but supposing for the sake of argument that it's true, I think not many people would have done the same, which is what compels me to respect rms in the same way as I would respect William Wallace as portrayed in the movie Braveheart. Sacrificing your life for the freedom of others takes no great feat of intellect or even physical skill, but in some ways, I think being willing to do such a thing deserves more respect than, say, proving P=NP.
Re:Miguel de Icaza responds to latest RMS article by axod on Tuesday October 06, 2009 @02:05PM (#864783)
>> "Sacrificing your life for the freedom of others"

Are we still talking about the guy who wrote some software and made it open source?

Do you not think Linus would have just made his own compiler+toolchain?