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Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by kybernetikos on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @02:49PM (#8625898)
There's no question in my mind that the whole thing is a racket and militates against security (you generally don't even know all the evil organisations that your browser implicitly trusts - and all the organisations that they trust etc).

There are certainly other options too: here's my suggestion-

The first time you go to a site where the certificate is one you haven't seen before, the browser should show a nice friendly page that doesn't make a fuss about how dangerous it is, and shows a fingerprint image for the site that you can verify elsewhere, either from a mail you've been sent, and with a list of images from fingerprint servers it knows about that contain a record for that site shown next to it.

Once you accept, it should store that certificate and allow you access to that site without making a big fuss or making it look like it's less secure than an unencrypted site. This should be a relatively normal flow and we should make the user experience accessible to normal people.

It's basically what we do for ssh connections to new hosts.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by userbinator on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @04:44PM (#8626548)
The SSH approach is exactly what I was thinking of, where you know the fingerprint of the other side you're connecting to.

I believe verification should be done out-of-band, using some other way (e.g. advertising) to transmit the fingerprint to the users. I've used self-signed certificates to collaborate over HTTPS with people I know in real life, and all I do is give them little pieces of paper with my cert printed on them.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by jcase on Wednesday November 19, 2014 @07:11AM (#8629555)
With SSH you usually own both endpoints (or at least trusting your cloud provider).

The example you give with regards to exchanging a piece of paper is very similar. It's ridiculously hard to do such a thing on large scale without trusting intermediaries.

I'm putting my eggs on certificate pinning.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by jcase on Wednesday November 19, 2014 @07:20AM (#8629581)
You're (almost) describing certificate pinning. Have a look at http://tack.io although it appears down for the moment. Here is the HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4010711
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by xorcist on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @05:10PM (#8626704)
How would you rotate keys with that scheme?
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by jaekwon on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @06:31PM (#8627105)
You'd need a strong root key and subkeys that rotate underneath. To change the root key would require signing by the original root and a new message to appear for confirmation.

All this plus something like a notary system to double check all your trusted root keys, would be much better than the hierarchical CA system we have.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by xorcist on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @06:49PM (#8627186)
Which root keys? The ones you store on your web server, which just got compromised?
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by jessaustin on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @09:14PM (#8627837)
Why would one store them there? Why not just use them to sign other keys that are actually used in online systems?
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by xorcist on Wednesday November 19, 2014 @08:48AM (#8629944)
No, the question is what to do when you need to rotate them. Because that need will arise somewhere, globally, if we were to run the secure web on trust-on-first-use.

It's not interesting why someone hypothetically did get their root keys compromised, it's interesting how the proposed system would cope with it.

(Downvoting the question is not really a web scale way to build a global trust system.)