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Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by tptacek on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @01:16PM (#8625310)
Without some kind of authentication, the encryption TLS offers provides no meaningful security. It might as well be an elaborate compression scheme. The only "security" derived from unauthenticated TLS presumes that attackers can't see the first few packets of a session. But of course, real attackers trivially see all the the traffic for a session, because they snare attackers with routing, DNS, and layer 2 redirection.

What's especially baffling about self-signed certificate advocacy is the implied threat model. Low- and mid-level network attackers and crime syndicates can't compromise a CA. Every nation state can, of course (so long as the site in question isn't public-key-pinned). But nation states are also uniquely capable of MITMing connections!

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by SilasX on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @04:57PM (#8626628)
>The only "security" derived from unauthenticated TLS presumes that attackers can't see the first few packets of a session

Could you elaborate here? With a self-signed cert, the server is still not sending secret information in the first few packets; it just tells you (without authentication) which public key to use to encrypt the later packets (well, the public key to encrypt the private key for later encryption).

The threat model would be eavesdroppers who can't control the channel, only look. Using the SS cert would be better than an unencrypted connection, though still shouldn't be represented as being as secure as full TLS. As it stands, the server is either forced to wait to get the cert, or serve unencrypted such that all attackers can see.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by tptacek on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @06:57PM (#8627238)
There are no such attackers.
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by xnull2guest on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @07:47PM (#8627488)
Do you think that with public key pinning self-signed certs begin to make sense? Also, do you feel that CAs and the PKI system do provide appropriate authentication (this being a cost-benefit rather than a 100%-correctness analysis)?
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by tptacek on Tuesday November 18, 2014 @08:33PM (#8627669)
Yes! Key continuity is a legitimate identity scheme; the only trick is to implement it scalably, so it actually happens, rather than being a fig leaf (an unworkable variant of key continuity already exists in browsers today).

I think the CA system by itself is inadequate, but unlike unauthenticated TLS, actually does provide some security.

Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by SilasX on Wednesday November 19, 2014 @12:08AM (#8628381)
You're saying that everyone able and willing to passively snoop, is also able and willing to compromise the channel and mimic the server?
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by tptacek on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:40AM (#8645524)
Correct.
Re:Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the... by SilasX on Sunday November 23, 2014 @03:53PM (#8649893)
Then I don't see how that would be true. Mimicking a server requires significantly more effort that simply storing the traffic. So even if someone were able, it doesn't follow that they would want to go through that effort in every case.