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Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by JamesSwift on Saturday October 25, 2014 @04:38PM (#8509312)
I'm always fascinated by the 'correctness' [1] of medicinal treatments in ancient times. Here, the paper explains that the ash tonic effectively served as a mineral supplement to promote bone healing. Is it just coincidence that they medicated in this manner, and it ended up being beneficial? Did they somehow know that the tonic was effective for these means? If so, how? Or is this just me weighting the 'correct' choice of remedies higher than the likely multitude of faulty choices that were made in those times?

[1] Poor choice of word, but can't think of a better one

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by benbreen on Saturday October 25, 2014 @05:26PM (#8509457)
I'm a medical historian and I think about this all the time - it's a more complex question than it initially appears to be. The typical line of reasoning is to assume that medical treatments "progress" through history as the efficacious ones win adherents and the ones that don't work fall out of favor. The problem with this is that the most popular medical treatment in the European and Islamic world for 2,000 years (bleeding) was medically worthless (well, unless you happen to have very high blood pressure).

So were all premodern doctors idiots who couldn't practice empiricism? Well, no - many of them are extremely intelligent, inquisitive people (people like Isaac Newton and Robert Boyle accepted bleeding as a treatment, so clearly "they weren't smart" or "they didn't understand the scientific method" isn't a good explanation). I think the answer is two pronged. One is simply that the placebo effect is extremely powerful, so even cures that we consider not to be efficacious in a clinical setting still "worked" in daily practice as placebos. The second is to look more closely at what someone with the scientific mind of Robert Boyle made of bleeding. He actually did do quasi-experimental trials involving blood loss and concluded that "excessive" bleeding was bad for human health. By the same token, he started doing chemical assays of various mineral and animal-based cures (like eating burnt lizards for epilepsy, and things like that) and began to lay the foundations for our later (18th/19th century) understanding of which minerals and vitamins are essential for human health. It's entirely possible that Greco-Roman doctors were doing similar things, but Boyle had the benefit of the ready dissemination of his findings via print and the world's first scientific journal (Philosophical Transactions), which happened to be edited by his close associate (Henry Oldenberg).

In short I think there was a kind of practical empiricism at work in the history of medicine that has always existed. But that it didn't begin to coalesce into clinical effective treatments until print culture made it possible for people to share their findings on a global level. This wasn't a simple march out of ignorance toward truth, though. And the reason for this is that the placebo effect of remedies like bleeding often "worked" just as well as the partially-effective treatments of premodern times, like, for instance, supplementing poor diets by eating the ashes of various animal and plant products.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by Jun8 on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:17PM (#8510149)
David Deutsch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Deutsch) has an interesting take on explaining why intelligent people in history did not converge on the correct theories sooner (not just in medicine, e.g. in physics, so noise created by placebo effect does not explain those), namely that if you have what he terms a bad theory empiricism or intelligence will not let you iterate to the correct solution as most people assume. You can be stuck at a local minimum.

If you have 15mins, watch his TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_....

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by benbreen on Sunday October 26, 2014 @10:00AM (#8511015)
Thanks, I'll check this out. Historians of early modern science have a favorite example of this, phlogiston.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory

Phlogiston theory is utterly wrong as an explanation for fire, but it "saves the appearances" (conforms to observable physical phenomena) quite well. I think Thomas Kuhn talks about it as an example of a mindset that required a paradigm shift to be thought about differently in Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which seems to be along similar lines as what I gather is Deutsch's Karl Popper-influenced take on scientific knowledge-making.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by pyre on Saturday October 25, 2014 @05:41PM (#8509491)
> So were all premodern doctors idiots who couldn't practice empiricism? Well, no - many of them are extremely intelligent, inquisitive people

You also have to accept that even extremely intelligent people view evidence through the lens of their preconceptions. This can be a difficult thing to escape.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by wavegeek on Saturday October 25, 2014 @07:00PM (#8509675)
I just read in "the lives and opinions of eminent philosophers" written ca 300 AD that Pythagoras (yes that Pythagoras) was the inventor of the "meat for athletes" diet. He also won a gold medal in the Olympics for boxing so he was not just an ivory tower speculator.

Meat in those days was regarded as an expensive luxury.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by pyre on Sunday October 26, 2014 @12:42AM (#8510247)
This post seems unrelated to my comment. Did you mean to respond to a different comment?

> He also won a gold medal in the Olympics for boxing so he was not just an ivory tower speculator.

If you are attempting to respond directly to my comment, then I don't see how being an athlete himself (even though that fact seems debatable) somehow means that his ideas aren't coloured in some way by his preconceptions. This has nothing to do with being in an 'ivory tower,' but instead to do with mapping the evidence to pre-conceived ideas and then calling it a day without questioning those idea themselves.

> Meat in those days was regarded as an expensive luxury.

It was an expensive luxury. I don't think that anyone is debating this. Even in China you can map the increase in consumption of meat to the rise of the Chinese middle-class in recent years.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by maximumoverload on Saturday October 25, 2014 @08:02PM (#8509830)
>He also won a gold medal in the Olympics for boxing

I heard that's mostly a myth

edit:

there was apparently different Pythagoras, who was a boxer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras_(boxer)

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by scottlocklin on Sunday October 26, 2014 @02:52PM (#8511887)
Once in a while, we find out that crazy ideas of the ancients have some basis in truth. For example, "epigenetics" is something that has been around since the ancient Greeks. Eveyrone who learns biology "learns" that Lamarck was a quack. Now, well, maybe he was kinda right somehow. The ancients weren't stupid. They may even have had more native intelligence than we do, since breeding patterns were still eugenic in the past (aka dumb people were killed off).

Similarly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if leeches and bleeding had some health giving effect. Perhaps it allows your body to make more appropriate white blood cells when you are sick.

BTW, can you recommend some good popular books on this subject? "Devils drugs and doctors" was one of my all time fave reads.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by PhasmaFelis on Thursday October 30, 2014 @04:53PM (#8535743)
> Eveyrone who learns biology "learns" that Lamarck was a quack.

I wouldn't say that. Lamarck's theory wasn't pulled out of his ass; it fit the facts available to him, just like the phlogiston theory did. It happened to be wrong, but it wasn't because Lamarck was stupid.

Incidentally, leeches actually do have a place in modern medicine: after reconstructive surgery, they can be used to draw blood out of the affected area in a gentle, controlled fashion, reducing swelling and internal clotting and letting the several blood vessels heal much more reliably. This has nothing to do with the ancient use of leeches, though.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by krivx on Saturday October 25, 2014 @05:01PM (#8509393)
A surprisingly huge amount of modern science is formalising and quantifying existing knowledge. I would say that they either discovered this by chance or adopted it from another group that made the discovery - they had access to a very wide range of folk remedies from across the Roman empire.

They may have had no insight into how or why this worked other than drinking ash tonics makes you feel better than not drinking them.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by Sone7 on Saturday October 25, 2014 @10:17PM (#8510072)
My guess is that there is a capacity for instinct that leads some people to find the correct remedy for themselves. The way people with mineral deficiency might crave soil, could be similar to the way shamans in South America 'knew' to combine an MAOI found in one variety of tree bark with the DMT containing plant - out of tens of thousands of plant species.

I know from my own experience that foods I hated as a kid turned out to be pretty bad for me - cauliflower, peanut butter, white bread, tomatoes - have real negative effects for one reason or another. On the other side, foods that I've craved at certain times like oranges or almonds, were counteracting a deficiency of one thing or another.

Of course, once this works once, the person who it worked for would spread the word for others with a similar problem.

Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by Detrus on Saturday October 25, 2014 @05:56PM (#8509522)
Athletes tend to stick to the same ritualized routine for months and years, which minimizes variables and helps them figure out which remedy really works.
Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by zaroth on Sunday October 26, 2014 @01:35AM (#8510309)
I was reading about Romans and lead poisoning on HN a couple weeks ago. I think this is just one case where it didn't happen to work out disastrously, but in many other cases the remedy was much worse than the disease.
Re:Roman Gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet and drank a... by jeremyt on Saturday October 25, 2014 @04:44PM (#8509329)
Efficacy