CS grads write shitty code too--and often, it's harder to figure out what they're trying to accomplish, because they use some weird non-standard red/black balanced bloom filter with LZ sliding window compression instead of just, say, a fucking hashmap.

At least with coders you often find code that is obviously wrong, instead of code that is non-obviously wrong.

I honestly never thought of it this way (your last sentence). But yes, to your first point many of our students are CS grads who realized they wanted to work as developers but didn't know how to code... They might start with a stronger theoretical understanding, and perhaps can code more complex functionality or software than our non CS grad students, but ultimately they're on a similar level. Just depends on what the individual wants to be doing long term.

Partly because I'm self-taught, I don't know how much of your statement I agree with. I agree that the bootcamps thing is out of control, but I don't think that I agree that it's bad to code without learning computer science. It might make you more effective, but I've known people with CS degrees who were terrible at coding. Also, in college, I could design better relational databases than CS students in their last year of college (well, my roommate at least, who went on to work at Microsoft). But I don't know the difference between a binary tree and a b-tree, because it's never been necessary for me to implement one. Even then, I'm curious about CS and read up on it when I have free time, and I've been working on nand2tetris, but that's mostly because I'm curious, and while I think it's interesting I don't think it's made me a better programmer (yet). I've also had interviews for web dev that included algorithm/data structure (most don't!), one such place even wanted to hire me, but I didn't want to work there because given the nature of the job I find it unlikely that I would be writing most of the things they asked me about

A lot of big companies like MS hire boy scouts (or girl scouts) who feel that they need a certification to carry around a pocket knife at camp for their entry level jobs. They also hire really smart people too, but they tend to hire the B's, not the A's. Sometimes it isn't clear whether they can tell or not. They like people who can be molded ushered in a direction over time. What you are describing isn't isolated is all I am saying. For better or worse, these are hires that they can shape into sequoias in their forrest of talent.

Coding and Computer Science can be mutually exclusive. There is no requirement or reason why you should be required to take computer science to be a programmer. There are plenty of coding jobs out there that do not require (in principle or practice) a CS degree.

On top of that, having a CS degree is no guarantee of someone being even a decent coder. There are tons of crappy CS grads who are bested by people with no degree, associates degrees, and random liberal arts degrees (e.g. philosophy, english).

You are right about the cost of boot camps. However, the exact same argument could be made against traditional 4 year college programs and masters degrees.

Ultimately, what you learn in the class is quickly eclipsed by what you learn on the job and in through continuous self study and pursuit of knowledge.

Some bootcamps do teach computer science principles. Many do not.

Do you know off hand which ones really do? I'm not sure I've seen evidence of it apart from sort of a brief introduction to theory...?

I couldn't disagree more!

I know great, long time and successful web developers who have never studied maths and CS! I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the software development field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong web developer working at startups, building your own light weight apps and products, or freelancing as a digital nomad and building portfolios and private e-commerce stores? You don't need any of that.

I think there are a lot of self taught and bootcamp taught developers who would disagree with you, and while you could argue they are all "sub par", you and I both know it takes a lot of people trying to find a few people who are genuinely talented. That goes for any skill! That's what makes YOU stand apart! But that doesn't make them or their own pursuits any less valid.

I know great, long time and successful bridge engineers who have never studied math and physics. I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the civil engineering field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong bridge developer working at construction startups, building your own light weight bridges and other buildings, or freelancing as an engineering nomad and building small private bridges? You don't need any of that.

See how ridiculous that sounds when you take another complex field and substitute it in? It should sound just as ridiculous for software development.

Hahaha, I see your point. But casually designing something that endangers people's lives really isn't much of a comparison.

yes, you can absolutely argue that developing the next piece of medical software for defibrillators is of equal importance, but if I'm sticking to coding front-ends of ecommerce shops and happy being great at that and staying on top of it as it grows... I'm not sure I see the point...?

My point is this - what happens when some kid with 6 weeks experience leaves gaping security vulnerabilities in your ecommerce shop (yes, even with front-end code alone) that results in financial damage to your customers?

If we're going for worldly examples to coding dangers: what happens when you're mechanic misses a screw when replacing your brake pads?

Firstly, if your a biz doing transactions, you better damn well be insured, just like your car, just like your health.

Secondly, your mechanic might be a junior, but little mistakes get left by the most experienced of people as well. Especially on things they think beneath them or simple. I hold no doubts that you and I have both at some point made a simple but critical mistake on the most "simple" part of a project. Its human nature.

6 weeks is a bit of an extreme example for someone to trust the building of a transaction site worth hacking, but even so I'm not sure that type of risk is something anyone can argue as a problem with bootcamps. What if I teach myself for a few weeks and want to start getting jobs and trying stuff out? Same issue, and some of the best developers I know in the world are self taught.

You are completely missing the point. You can't just say "So what if a mechanic forgets to check the brakes to make sure they work before setting a customer loose in a car that is going to run off a cliff and DIE."

Insurance can certainly cover the cost, but is it your company's official stance that it produces coders who need to be paired with supplemental errors and omissions insurance policies because they will crash your company's product or that it would be ok if they cause major problems?

I think you are somehow confusing graphic design with software engineering and programming here. Maybe what you should be telling people is that you are teaching people how to build brochure websites for a living. If that is it then your perceived quality or capability bar might not be objectionable.

You're comparing really really really small apples to really really really big apples.

Your mechanic's mistake might result in a few people being hurt (a bad thing, of course). It's not going to result in serious damage to hundreds of thousands of people's financial lives. It's not going to result in massive privacy violations. Or sink a multibillion dollar project.

I also think you might be overestimating the benefits of "being insured" - these types of problems can destroy companies. Is one inexperienced coder likely to cause something like that? Maybe not - but an army of them? Much more likely.

I'm not saying people don't make mistakes. But I am saying these types of courses cannot possibility teach you enough to truly know what you're doing, and I as a hiring manager would not consider hiring someone with no other experience than your organization's 3 month course and a couple of side projects without the benefit another 2-3 years professional experience on top of that.

> But I am saying these types of courses cannot possibility teach you enough to truly know what you're doing, and I as a hiring manager would not consider hiring someone with no other experience than your organization's 3 month course and a couple of side projects without the benefit another 2-3 years professional experience on top of that.

I've agreed with parts of this statement several times throughout the various comments on this feed. Bootcamps that send their students out into the world without a realistic idea of where they stand and how to progress beyond their current knowledge are doing an injustice to their students, and to the people who have to sift through their resumes. Its something we try very hard to to work against, and set realistic expectations for with our active students. Its partly why we built our own curriculums.

I think your taking the context of small apples and putting them in the context of MASSIVE apples. But I like apples, so lets not get them tied into this mess.

I'm still very confused what you're arguing, as you present problems with the bootcamp model, but then what is the solution? How did you learn to code, and how was it better? How long were you restricted to education-only projects before "being allowed" to work on real things?

Hiring managers and advanced software developers lead teams for a reason, to filter out people they cannot trust from their team. I would also say though that something we do is take passionate people and give them the tools to kickstart a new career. Yes it takes time, and experience and lots of learning beyond a 3 month course, I think everyone can be realistic about that, but to say someone "shouldn't be coding anything" because that's where they started? Can't agree there.

So again, how did you learn to code, and how was it better? How can the bootcamp model be adjusted to do a better job?

Well said King.

"Well, I freelanced as a cardiologist on some local homeless people and I watch a TON... A TON of House, so I feel I'm ready to break into being a surgeon"

You just described a dream I had 2 weeks ago... I need to stop watching House. :-p