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Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @01:28PM (#8368343)
As a citizen of Uruguay I find the last paragraph very funny:

“I feel about the same obligation to file US tax papers as you would if the supreme court of Uruguay all of a sudden decided you were a citizen and had to file a tax return there,” he tells the Guardian.

By the way, Uruguayan citizenship is VERY easy to acquire. American expatriates (and dollars :) ) welcome here :)

Edit: easy as in requirements. There's a lot of paperwork involved.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/03/09/top-5-best-second-resi...

http://flagtheory.com/citizenship-in-uruguay/

"It will take approximately 3 years for a married couple, with a good amount of time spent in country. For singles, it will take 5 years – with a similar amount of time in country. This makes Uruguay more attractive for married couples rather than a single applicant.

Uruguay wants you to prove your residence by documentation – sometimes odd documents such as a doctor’s appointment slip, a library card. The idea is that they really want you to prove you are actually living in the country. This documentation is again, not always what you might expect – so document everything and when in doubt – shoe box it.

After you have received permanent residency, you should talk to an abogado about citizenship and travel document options. Again, permanent residency is required to be able to receive any kind of travel documents. Further, a cedula is somewhat considered a travel document as well and can allow you to get around South America in many instances.

Strong Travel Document

A Uruguayan passport is one of the strongest in the world. Under this passport, you can visit Europe visa free, and most Uruguayans have a 10 year American visa."

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ggambetta on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:04PM (#8368586)
As a fellow Uruguayan, I want to add that citizenship comes without too many obligations; no military service or anything like that. The only one I can think of is that voting is compulsory.

On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend living in Uruguay; I had very good reasons to leave and I don't see myself returning anytime soon. And I'd argue any European passport is better than an Uruguay one - you can freely live and work in Europe, and you can visit the US without any visa.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:21PM (#8368708)
Totally agreed on the European passports being overall superior (although some do come with obligations like military service for an Austrian passport for example), but they're much harder to obtain (I've been denied German citizenship).

I've read about your reasons for leaving (security), and sadly, I have to agree that they're still an issue (and I'd love living in Switzerland).

I think the risk can be minimized though. Ideally I'd want to live in Punta del Este or Maldonado rather than Montevideo, and the countryside is still pretty safe (though a computer nerd might die of boredom there :P ).

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by Vespasian on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:38PM (#8368829)
Out of curiosity:

If its not too personal can you share some general information what nationality you have or had while applying to the German citizenship and what were the main reasons it didn't work out.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:38PM (#8369262)
My grandfather was born to Prussian parents which came to Uruguay and then back to Prussia, but he was born in Uruguay, and lived in Uruguay from his teens onward.

When he went to obtain a German citizenship, he was asked to bring in a lot of additional paperwork (a church birth certificate being one I think). One of my uncles went to Germany to try to obtain it, but it was in vain.

I wasn't going to be granted German citizenship unless my grandfather, and then my father, were granted German citizenship.

My grandfather was as German as they come, but due to those quirks he wasn't granted citizenship, and so I wasn't able to.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by Vespasian on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:57PM (#8369391)
A very interesting stroy. Thanks for sharing that!
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by cruisername on Thursday September 25, 2014 @04:37PM (#8369603)
being denied german citizenship sucks for you, but with that last-name it's remarkably ironic.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by dreamweapon on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:22PM (#8368719)
I wouldn't recommend living in Uruguay; I had very good reasons to leave and I don't see myself returning anytime soon.

I'd be curious to know why this is the case for you.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ggambetta on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:41PM (#8369281)
Insecurity, basically. At some point during the last decade society kind of broke down, and the respect for human life was lost. I'm talking 12 year olds killing a store clerk in cold blood for 2 or 3 dollars, or worse [1]. This didn't happen just once; at some point there was a murder per day, in a country of three million people. The government, who are former terrorists [2] and based their campaigns on condemning the "repression" of the police, are ideologically incapable of being firm against all this (in fact, they're ideologically stuck in the 60s)

Another example: people trying to hijack a car stopped in a traffic light. In broad daylight. While a news crew was filming. And a policeman was standing 100m away: https://plus.google.com/+GabrielGambetta/posts/fbZo1YVLeet

They have also given too much power to the unions, to the point that they can legally steal a factory from their owners, for example (in a nutshell, occupying it until it goes bankrupt, and then assuming control "to save jobs") Also, just before their first term in power, Uruguay had just came out of a terrible economic crisis that affected the whole region; basically, Argentina fell, and Uruguay is too small and dependent to have avoided it (and the old government was blamed). During the last decade the whole region has improved, so the economic situation in Uruguay is quite good right now (and the new government takes credit). But the worst thing is the way they're squandering this money in sort-of-well-meaning but very badly implemented "social" policies, so when the "up" economic cycle turns into a "down" economic cycle and the easy money runs out, there will be no reserves, a disfunctional and violent society, truly pathetic education level [3],... it's a ticking bomb.

[1] http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/ninos-mataron-amigo-hor... (two kids, 11 and 14, killed their 11 year old friend with a machete, and then went playing football)

[2] http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/15613143/Mujica-el-terrori... http://diurnarius.com/jose-mujica-de-ladron-a-presidente/ http://www.periodistadigital.com/opinion/politica/2009/11/30...

[3] http://www.montevideo.com.uy/auc.aspx?220385

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by dreamweapon on Thursday September 25, 2014 @05:11PM (#8369762)
Thanks. Even so, I've always wanted to go there, for some reason. We'll see what happens.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ggambetta on Thursday September 25, 2014 @05:24PM (#8369811)
For some tourism, sure, go for it! Summer is best, besides Montevideo you should check out Punta del Este and Colonia.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday September 25, 2014 @06:43PM (#8370233)
By "summer", I presume you mean summer below the equator - December, January, February.

(When Australia hosted the Summer Olympics, it was actually winter in Australia.)

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ggambetta on Friday September 26, 2014 @01:59AM (#8371538)
Yes, of course. Local summer. January is probably the best time.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by mrfusion on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:19PM (#8368685)
Why don't you recommend living there? It sounds like a nice place?
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:28PM (#8368768)
A previous discussion (note: I still live in Uruguay):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6903357

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ggambetta on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:41PM (#8369284)
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by toomuchtodo on Thursday September 25, 2014 @01:50PM (#8368486)
Can I still maintain my US citizenship as an Uruguayan citizen if I so choose?
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by tptacek on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:38PM (#8368832)
Doesn't the U.S. have a problem with citizens voluntarily and deliberately acquiring citizenship from foreign countries?
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by maxerickson on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:48PM (#8368903)
I thought that too, but space has been opened up:

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-conside...

but only if the act is performed (1) voluntarily and (2) with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

Is the key point.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by clamprecht on Thursday September 25, 2014 @04:43PM (#8369641)
Here's a pretty good dual citizenship FAQ compiled over the years by Rich Wales:

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/ - start here

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html - the meat of it is here

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:42PM (#8368858)
Yes it does, but people do it anyways.

If you become a U.S. citizen, you're expected to renounce your other nationalities.

Edit: The biggest case was Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin renouncing U.S. citizenship for the tax savings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduardo_Saverin

2nd Edit: some discussion on Hacker News

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3979669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4416258

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by Grazester on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:09PM (#8369073)
You can become a U.S. citizen and maintain citizenship of your country of birth(or others your are holding)if the country wasn't China and a few others listed in the link I have provided. Half of my immediate family have become U.S. Citizens and maintained their other citizenships.

http://www.immihelp.com/citizenship/dual-citizenship-recogni...

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:44PM (#8369301)
I was told by a friend who's getting U.S. citizenship you have to take an oath renouncing other citizenship.. here it is:

"“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen…” from the Oath of Allegiance "

http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html

apparently it is not binding:

" the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#c...

Edit: can you ask your family if they took that oath, or is the information obsolete? Until now, I thought it was an actual requirement to renounce other citizenships.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by idlewords on Thursday September 25, 2014 @04:14PM (#8369480)
That is still the oath they make you take, but it has no legal consequences. You take it, eat the brownies that the VFW baked for your naturalization ceremony, and happily keep both passports.

Source: happily kept both passports.

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by MichaelGG on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:42PM (#8368860)
The US doesn't seem to care - they still treat their citizens as citizens, and sort of ignore any other citizenship. Unless there's a real conflict, like joining a foreign military.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by GFischer on Thursday September 25, 2014 @01:53PM (#8368503)
Yes, although the U.S. will expect you to file and pay taxes (as the article above explains) :)
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by ArtDev on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:05PM (#8368593)
You want the foreign earned income tax credit. I am designing my life around it!

Check out Belize and Costa Rica. Neither country will tax you at all. You even will qualify for a special residency visa!

Greeting from Greece!

Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by toomuchtodo on Thursday September 25, 2014 @01:58PM (#8368545)
Right right, no problems there. I'm comfortable, not wealthy, and a remote worker :)
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by mahyarm on Thursday September 25, 2014 @02:53PM (#8368944)
You'll still have a $5k tax return to pay $0 in tax, have significantly higher penalty risk and have a hard time doing banking outside of the USA.
Re:Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks... by toomuchtodo on Thursday September 25, 2014 @03:09PM (#8369067)
I'm okay with that.