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Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by blinkingled on Monday September 22, 2014 @08:02AM (#8350171)
This makes sandboxing possible which is a huge security win and the reason I still use Chrome where I can. RAM is cheap and browsers 64-bit so a bunch of extra memory in the name of security is not a big deal really. At least that's how I see it.
Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by blueskin_ on Monday September 22, 2014 @08:06AM (#8350185)
>RAM is cheap

Great, buy me another 32GB then please</s>. People shouldn't have to have high end gaming rigs to run a sodding browser.

Mozilla (and google) are deluding themselves in thinking that their particular software is the be all and end all of a computer, and should be introduced to this strange concept called 'multitasking'.

Firefox: 1.5GB

Thunderbird: ~1GB

OS: 1GB (conservative estimate)

Various background programs: 1GB

Suddenly doesn't look so cheap.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by icebraining on Monday September 22, 2014 @08:28AM (#8350245)
OS: 1GB (conservative estimate)

What are you using, Windows? I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 and the "OS" (X, window manager, daemons) is certainly not even close to 1GB, more like ~100MB.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by blueskin_ on Monday September 22, 2014 @08:48AM (#8350305)
Windows,and multiple Linux distros. Windows needs >1GB to run smoothly, while most Linux gets by in <1GB, it still feels very sluggish if I can't actually get 1GB when it needs it.
Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by phkahler on Monday September 22, 2014 @09:23AM (#8350417)
I run firefox on Fedora 20, on a dual core AMD64 from 2005. It worked ok with 1GB, but as indicated things went south when it ran out of memory. I upgraded to 2GB and useage rarely goes above 1, so everything is fine now. That said, I'm not one of the people who use tabs instead of bookmarks. My expectations are probably lower than many too, but I am all too familiar with content in one tab destroying performance of the browser as a whole. So I'm all for this e10s thing.
Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by mindcrime on Monday September 22, 2014 @02:43PM (#8351855)
It sucks that you're getting downvoted. I totally agree that this "RAM is cheap" thinking is problematic. Sure, if you only ran one program at a time on a computer, it would make perfect sense. But when I have a finite amount of RAM to spread among a multitude of applications, screaming "RAM is cheap" is bollocks. Never mind that on my current laptop I'm already at the max it can physically support, which means if I want more RAM, I have to buy a whole new machine.

Here's a thought for developers: Next time you find yourself saying "RAM is cheap" (or any variation thereof) thwack yourself about the head multiple times with a big stick, then go rinse your mouth out with soap and water.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by possibilistic on Tuesday September 23, 2014 @03:14AM (#8354358)
Sometimes RAM is cheaper than engineer salaries. Sometimes it isn't. It depends on problem domain, scale, and what you're tying to optimize for. Debating this just seems pointless.

In any case, the number one evaluation criterion for browsers is not the RAM profile.

If performance matters that much, perhaps you should instead be asking why we are writing applications and UI in an ugly evolution of SGML.

Before you fault the Moz devs, ask yourself why we have CSS for high DPI images and why designers embed videos into website headers. Maybe your needs aren't at all times reflective of the majority. The browser serves the spec. The spec serves every case you care to imagine. Because that's what we evolved a doc format to do.

(Just imagine a parallel universe where it was instead MS Word that evolved into a facebooking client!)

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by mindcrime on Tuesday September 23, 2014 @04:34PM (#8358021)
I'm not faulting the Moz developers per-se, just saying that - as a group - developers should not just throw up their hands, shout "RAM is cheap" and then be totally cavalier about how their programs use RAM. It's a refrain that has become, IMO, all too common, and I think it's harmful.

Sure, Firefox, and every other program should use as much RAM as it needs. But we should be mindful of keeping that need as low as possible, at least for any program that falls into the category of "runs in a multi-program environment and probably won't be the only program running from a finite RAM pool".

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by taeric on Monday September 22, 2014 @09:58AM (#8350542)
I'm curious how huge of a security win it really is. The vast majority of exploits that I hear about would still be possible. Especially since phishing is by far the weakest link in any model.

I mean, sure, it sounds great to say things are sandboxed. But when the actual exploits either a) root the machine, or b) targeted the user directly, it seems that protecting tabs from each other really doesn't do much.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by icebraining on Monday September 22, 2014 @10:11AM (#8350597)
It's not about protecting the tabs from each other; when you separate the tasks into different containers, you can apply strong limits to what each can do, which makes it harder to "root the machine".

For example, see the Chromium docs: http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/multi-pr...

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by taeric on Monday September 22, 2014 @11:32AM (#8350959)
I see, this is more about sandboxing the renderer. Not necessarily sandboxing the tabs. Right? Curious if one really required the other.

And, still, kind of amusing that the entire point of the browser is that it is sandboxed from the whole computer. Seems if we just restricted what the browser was capable of as a whole, we'd be there.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by agwa on Monday September 22, 2014 @11:57AM (#8351086)
Trying to restrict the browser as a whole doesn't work for a couple reasons:

1. The browser as a whole needs to have permission to do quite a few things, including reading from and writing to the filesystem (for uploading and downloading files), talking to your system's graphical environment so it can display windows, and accessing arbitrary hosts on the network so it can access web servers. It's just not possible to meaningfully sandbox something requiring so much access. Individual browser components, on the other hand, can be designed to do very specific tasks and are thus easier to isolate.

2. You want to protect not only your system from a browser exploit but also other parts of the browser. A site that exploits a browser vulnerability shouldn't be able to read your cookies for another site.

These reasons imply that you need to focus on isolating and restricting components inside the browser instead of the browser as a whole.

Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by taeric on Monday September 22, 2014 @12:04PM (#8351122)
Your last sentence is a better worded version of what I meant. That it is less that the tabs are isolated and sandboxed, and more that components of the browser are.
Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by icebraining on Monday September 22, 2014 @12:03PM (#8351117)
If you sandbox the whole browser, it can't actually do anything, including actually display the webpages or connecting to sites.
Re:Electrolysis – run web content in a separate process from... by blinkingled on Monday September 22, 2014 @10:53AM (#8350776)
It is way harder to exploit a machine through a properly sandboxed process. Sandboxing restricts the process's access to filesystem and network. On Linux for example seccomp can restrict the number of system calls the process can make which further reduces the attack surface greatly. So to exploit a OS vulnerability through a sandboxed process you also need to exploit a vulnerability in sandboxing itself. That's significant.