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Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @03:05PM (#8326375)
> Yes, but those specified circumstances are pretty broad.

Not really.

> If you don't feel safe biking along a strech without taking the lane, then the middle of the lane can be "as close to the right as practicable".

You will probably usually get away with that the same way you'll usually get away with ignoring the law requiring yielding to pedestrians at intersections -- its not something the police usually care that much about enforcing. But that's not at all what the law says, and I'd be very surprised if there is any reference in the statute, or any case law, that you can point to that suggests your attempt to define "practicable" as "whatever the bicyclist subjectively feels comfortable doing" is a correct interpretation of the statute.

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dllthomas on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @03:24PM (#8326547)
"Not really."

Yes, really. Per VC 21202, it is explicitly: 1) when passing another bicycle, 2) where the cyclist is planning on making a left hand turn, 3) "[w]hen reasonably necessary to avoid conditions [...] that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge", or 4) approaching anywhere anyone can make a right hand turn. That's "pretty broad", in my book - feel free to disagree, obviously the term is subjective.

"You will probably usually get away with that the same way you'll usually get away with ignoring the law requiring yielding to pedestrians at intersections"

That is a horrendous false equivalence. Violation of that law puts people at risk. I'm advocating an interpretation of a law permitting behaviors that keep people safe.

'But that's not at all what the law says, and I'd be very surprised if there is any reference in the statute, or any case law, that you can point to that suggests your attempt to define "practicable" as "whatever the bicyclist subjectively feels comfortable doing" is a correct interpretation of the statute.'

Not "subjectively feels comfortable doing," but "reasonably considers to be the safer choice". This is the same responsibility everyone has on the road, and it's insane to think that "practicable" is not intended to take safety into account. Riding unsafely is not practicable. I have no idea whether this has been tested in court, but anything else is crazy.

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:05PM (#8326779)
> Not "subjectively feels comfortable doing," but "reasonably considers to be the safer choice".

"reasonably considers" is not in the law. "Reasonably necessary" is, but nothing that suggest that is a subjective consideration of the person subject to the requirement rather than an "objective" (as that is used in law, which isn't exactly the normal sense) determination applied to the facts.

Again, I think that you err in assigning subjectivity, and your only support is words that normally in law invoke objective standards.

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dllthomas on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:13PM (#8326829)
I think you're making a distinction that isn't one. One must necessarily operate on their subjective assessment of objective reality.

I'm not going to take a poll or ask a lawyer every five seconds as I try to decide where I need to be.

You are, either way, subject to others disagreeing about what is reasonable; and either way, you should seek to educate yourself about what is empirically safer behavior (for reasons much more important than a ticket).

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @05:11PM (#8327142)
> I think you're making a distinction that isn't one.

I think youa re obscuring an important distinction: specifically, you are confusing "how you decide to act based on the law" with "what is required by the law".

> I'm not going to take a poll or ask a lawyer every five seconds as I try to decide where I need to be.

Of course not. That doesn't mean, however, that the requirements of the law are based on your subjective judgement. Obviously, with most laws, you are going to use your subjective judgement to decide how to act, even if the requirements of the law set an objective standard that will be applied should the question of whether you complied with the law ever come into controversy.

But your earlier argument was that the law accomodates your subjective judgement of necessity, which is incorrect.

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dllthomas on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @05:21PM (#8327187)
"But your earlier argument was that the law accomodates your subjective judgement of necessity, which is incorrect."

I see how you can get that from what I said, but it was not meant to be a specific claim in any strong sense.

As I said here, though, there are better reasons than "complying with the law" to make sure your subjective assessment of safety matches reality, and given that your subjective assessment of safety matches reality the law does say what I said above.

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by revelation on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @03:18PM (#8326497)
It literally says so in the "rules of the road". You might have missed it in your posting frenzy.

A person operating a bicycle or roller skis upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time and place shall operate on the right portion of the way as far as practicable __except when it is unsafe to do so as determined by the bicyclist__ or roller skier

(Thats Maine, but presumably it is similar elsewhere)

Re:New California law requires drivers passing cyclists to g... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:03PM (#8326770)
California, which is what is under discussion, uses "reasonably necessary", not "as determined by the cyclist", which in law generally means an objective standard (as that term is used in law -- that is, reasonable to an outside observer, in practice the trier of fact of the case in which the requirement becomes an issue), not a subjective one (i.e., not the judgement of the person to whom the requirement applies.)