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Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by kannanvijayan on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:17PM (#8143566)
It's debatable whether Signalling Theory really applies to creatures who have enough coginitive ability to model thought processes in their peers.

As soon as you make it publicly known that a particular selection criteria is in effect, the same salespeople you are trying to avoid will learn the new behaviour they need to adopt to meet those criteria.

So now slick salesguys know not to wear suits when they pitch to Thiel.

I realize the desire to develop "clever hacks" to arrive at truths, but in reality they are heuristics, and heuristics can and will be defeated by interested parties.

In the long term, there is simply no substitute for doing the work of honest, stringent evaluation on the actual qualities you are looking for. This "don't take pitches from suits" is limited, temporary advice at best.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by SilasX on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:36PM (#8143698)
It still has value as a "brown M&M" filter [1] where you're testing for whether they were thorough enough to follow your stated criteria, regardless of whether it has any other predictive power.

Of course, even then, it's not the (non)suit per se but the fact of having done your research.

[1] from the story about the band that checked whether the venue manager followed such detailed specs as not having brown M&Ms in the bowl

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by danielweber on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @07:09PM (#8145384)
The brown M&M filter is good because you want people to read every single instruction in regards to something critical to crew and audience safety.

On the other hand, reading every single Peter Thiel has ever written doesn't seem like a good use of an entrepreneur's time.

On the other other hand, if you are Peter Thiel you can make people ask "how high?" when you say "jump." I can see the heady appeal of that.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by dllthomas on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:34PM (#8144056)
An interesting point. Then there's the question of whether people who research their potential funding sources to such a level are more or less likely to be good investments. That's a lot less clear than in the Van Halen case - here, I see plenty of arguments in both directions.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by SilasX on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:10PM (#8144265)
What would be an argument for dis-correlation? I have a hard time seeing how someone better at startups would be less likely to do their homework on a potential investor, given that they'd think ahead in numerous other ways. It would have to be a situation in which think ahead for everything but this, or in which their happy-go-lucky style is miraculously good at making the right choices everywhere but here.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by dllthomas on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:17PM (#8144298)
It's not that they would be less likely to be good relative to themselves-but-did-research. It's that someone focused on the sale is what Thiel is purportedly trying to avoid in dismissing those in suits. Someone focused on the sale of the company to investors more than on the company might be even more likely to do that research than the best bets, and that might cause dis-correlation.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by tomjen3 on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @04:38PM (#8144715)
Who is most likely to be doing through homework: somebody who is having great success and can expect multiple competing offers or somebody who isn't having much success and has a really hard time raising money?

Now by no means is it a given that amount of success now tells anything about amount of success tomorrow, but if they aren't at least positively correlated then VC have no business being in business.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by enraged_camel on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:47PM (#8143784)
>>It's debatable whether Signalling Theory really applies to creatures who have enough coginitive ability to model thought processes in their peers.

I don't think it's debatable at all, because in this particular case, it is not about cognitive ability, but meta-cognitive ability. You need to first recognize the signal and process it, and then be self-aware enough to understand why you processed it the way you did.

Whereas the fact of the matter is that people are on auto-pilot most of the time. This is why we put so much emphasis on things like first impressions, which are also a form of signaling.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by sliverstorm on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:25PM (#8143624)
Don't fool yourself. Humans are not "above" signalling theory. For example, explain to me how diamond wedding rings are not a perfect example of Costly Signalling. Our signalling arms races just tend to move more quickly.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by kannanvijayan on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:06PM (#8143908)
If one is using the ability to procure diamond rings as an evaluation of suitability as a partner, as opposed to an evaluation of whether they can afford a diamond ring (which may well be a proxy for one of the criteria for partnership - wealth - but not sufficient), then it can and will be gamed.

If you're using a diamond ring as a proxy for whether someone truly loves you, I'd suggest you're opening yourself up to be taken advantage of.

If you're using a diamond ring as a criteria for evaluating the wealth of a potential partner, I suppose that's a bit better.

I wasn't suggesting that humans were above signalling theory. Just questioning whether it had any real utility for complex evaluations like "is this person reliable and trustworthy" or "is this person going to make a good partner".

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by sliverstorm on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:15PM (#8144287)
it can and will be gamed

Yes, there is cubic zirconia and things like that. But notice how society reacts, and rejects cubic zirconia? It isn't because cubic zirconia is inferior. It is because it is not expensive, so it makes for a poor costly signal!

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by kannanvijayan on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:53PM (#8144488)
Not gamed in that sense. Gamed in the sense that a diamond ring is purchased not as a show of commitment, but with the intent that it will be perceived as a show of commitment by the receiver.

If the giver knows that the receiver is treating the ring as a sign of commitment, they can decide "well I'm not really committed to this person, but I can help convince them that I am by buying them a diamond ring."

At that point, the metric has been gamed.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by tomjen3 on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @04:41PM (#8144735)
How much is a pawnshops spread, anyway?

Because you could buy a suitable ring there (it will have an icky feeling to most people, so it will be cheaper than a "new" ring) and then sell it back when you now longer needed her to think you were committed.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by sliverstorm on Thursday August 07, 2014 @03:06PM (#8149512)
Diamond ring is purchased as a show of both wealth and commitment. The recipient is left to judge- if the giver is very wealthy, it is clearly not a strong sign of commitment. If the giver is very poor, it is clearly a strong sign of commitment.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:09PM (#8143926)
The ring is a symbol of commitment (sunk a month's pay into it) from a person whom you have already done a pretty good screening on. Its not the only criterion; disingenuous.
Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by kannanvijayan on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:39PM (#8144084)
Then a months worth of pay, given cash in hand to the partner, or given to a charity in the name of the partner, should be an equivalent signal.

Once again, I question the utility of screening based on this, even screening out on the basis of "not giving a diamond ring".

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by sliverstorm on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:09PM (#8144260)
No, that's the neat thing about Costly Signalling. Giving the partner a month's worth of pay in cash is not equivalent, because in Costly Signalling the resource is wasted on purpose to demonstrate how inconsequential that resource is to the signaler. Giving the partner cash or giving to charity both have utility. A ring has no utility. Thus a ring is the only one of the three which can be a costly signal.

If you had a hundred billion dollars to your name, you wouldn't care an ounce about spending ten thousand on a diamond ring. Ten thousand dollars just doesn't matter. But a minimum wage worker cannot say the same. The ring is a socially established demonstration of this.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by kannanvijayan on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:49PM (#8144464)
I am not sure I buy that reasoning. The ring certainly has utility from the perspective of the giver: the giver knows that it is going to elicit a positive response. A donation to charity cannot be worn, cannot be accessorized, cannot be shown off. I disagree with your assessment - in today's society, a ring has far more social value than a charitable donation.

The ring is shiny, and pretty, and can be socially displayed to elicit the attention of others.

The example you provide re-affirms my point. The evaluation criteria you are reverting to is wealth. And as a heuristic for wealth, the ability to purchase an expensive ring is a reasonable metric.

As a heuristic for a good partner, it is next to useless. As a screening criteria for the complex quality of "goodness" in partner, it is likely less than useless.

If you are evaluating partners purely on their wealth and willingness to waste that wealth to enter into a partnership with you, then a ring is a more reasonable criteria.

For an assessment on more nuanced basis (e.g. does the potential partner truly love me?), it is not a very good indicator, and may even be a contra-indicator precisely because it can be gamed easily.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by sliverstorm on Thursday August 07, 2014 @03:05PM (#8149507)
And as a heuristic for wealth, the ability to purchase an expensive ring is a reasonable metric.

And that is what it is.

As a heuristic for a good partner, it is next to useless.

On its own? Certainly. But wealth is an aspect to a good partner. All else being equal, the wealthy one is better.

Re:Dress codes: Suitable disruption by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @04:06PM (#8144552)
Again, its not any of those things. You've already decided they're a good partner. The ring is a social contract in addition to that.