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Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by Stefanrio on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:25AM (#8102048)
I love how people still make noise about NSA, while gladly using facebook.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by imgabe on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:38AM (#8102116)
Facebook does not have the power to imprison you or mark you as a suspected terrorist and put you on a no-fly list and freeze your bank accounts.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:25AM (#8102373)
But it has the power to completely undermine public discourse and thus democratic decisionmaking.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by pessimizer on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:51AM (#8102504)
The NSA can (and does) use Facebook to mark you as a suspected terrorist and put you on a no-fly list. The NSA doesn't have the power to imprison you or seize your bank accounts without the help of a judge.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by avn2109 on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @03:25PM (#8104406)
However, the balance of power in our society has now shifted to the point where the NSA is trivially capable of securing the judges' cooperation. So the "help of the judge" will be granted anytime the NSA asks for it, and in a practical sense they can still do all sorts of unpleasant things to you at will.

Also, if a judge starts being uncooperative, the NSA has a lengthy dossier on his adultery, homosexuality, communist tendencies, suspected terrorist links, etc. It would be a real shame for that dossier to find its way to the public, wouldn't it...?

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by imgabe on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:48AM (#8102874)
That is a reason to oppose the NSA, not Facebook.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by watwut on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:59AM (#8102234)
Facebooks ability to use my kids and cat pictures is not comparable to government ability to read political activists or journalists emails. Random person ability to know what school I did go to is not as dangerous to justice as governments ability to read communication of defense in high profile case.

By your logic, everyone who make noise about NSA should go underground to keep the right to complain.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by crpatino on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @02:04PM (#8103776)
I don't care about the cat pictures at all, but my kids is another matter.

Living in a country where rule of law is not to be taken for granted, it is a great source of concern to me that some idiot^H^H^H^H^H naive relative/friend/acquaintance might be unknowingly feeding organized crime with personal information about me and my family.

Unfortunately, Americans will always believe the world is America. When Facebook the corporation opens up their services to the world, they fail to acknowledge that they are changing stuff they are unaware of, but for good and ill. Their cavalier use or privacy data can and will (or most probably, is) be used by all sort of rouge agents, and not just to perform relatively petty crime like CC fraud or identity theft, but also to enable violent felonies.

NSA does not really bother me... it's the thug that shows up one good day and demands you to fork $200USD per week or else...

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by sp332 on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:14AM (#8102324)
Every level of government, right down to the municipal level, can ask Facebook to hand all that data over at any time. They don't even need a court order if they claim it's an emergency or involves a child. https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/ Facebook admits to turning over data on tens of thousands of people in the USA. https://govtrequests.facebook.com/country/United%20States/20...
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by watwut on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:49AM (#8102480)
Yes, but I kind of assume that political activist does not keep his super secret emails on facebook.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by sp332 on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:40AM (#8102819)
Contact list and location history are scary enough, and I'm not a political activist.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by vezzy-fnord on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:14AM (#8102326)
It's not just that, though. All of the casual information that you post on Facebook, including timestamps and whatnot, can all be used to infer and create a detailed portfolio as to your personality, location, political views, sexual orientation, interests, commonly visited places, employer, etc. EXIF data from photographs alone is a goldmine.

There was actually a practical example of a man FOIAing his documents from Facebook, which revealed that they had over a thousand pages specifically devoted to him alone on every facet of his life. Even though he was only a "casual" user (one wall update a week, or so). You can see it in the documentary film Terms and Conditions May Apply.

As for me personally, I've never had a Facebook account. Although virtually no one is impervious, reducing social media presence is still always useful to get rid of the blatantly incriminating things.

Unfortunately, the biggest threat is perhaps, what other people are saying about you. I have no idea about what's going on there...

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by XorNot on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:27AM (#8102385)
"incriminating". You don't want to use that word. Because if you're actually doing something illegal or immoral, that is not a compelling reason for us not to act on it.

The idea that you need to be able to hide your political speech is a problem to start with. You won't be saved from tyranny by that power - if you use it, you already experience it and tyranny needs no reason to kick in doors beyond suspicion. Accurate intelligence is what you need when you're trying to do things right (or you've executed all the dissidents and the remaining ones are still a real threat).

Those who want to hide don't interest me. If there fears come to pass, I'll be long dead, and they'll have sat by and done nothing while it happened.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by cryoshon on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:49AM (#8102481)
Of course you need to be able to hide your political speech; people automatically temper their opinions to conform more with the group or choose to remain silent in situations where everyone's political speech is visible. Without the ability to keep cloistered political speech as a realm to discuss and test ideas without condemnation, the political speech landscape begins to look horrifically uniform and (inevitably, because they control the media) pro-state. To reiterate, if the state has the ability to spy and understand 100% of online political speech, people will self-censor their speech, preventing different ideas from propagating.

This is currently the case-- radical political ideas have been accompanied by state surveillance and attempts at discrediting for a long time, and the current crop of NSA totalitarianism is no different.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by sp332 on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:43AM (#8102840)
There's still a big gap between "illegal activity" and "things I would prefer random strangers in the government not know about me".
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by jessaustin on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:00AM (#8102534)
...then they came for the Facebook users, and I said nothing, because I didn't use Facebook...

b^)

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by opendais on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:41AM (#8102141)
I don't use Facebook.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by tzs on Wednesday July 30, 2014 @12:19AM (#8106342)
It still massively affects you (assuming you are in the US), because of the 4th Amendment. That's the one that prohibits unreasonable search and seizure.

A key factor in whether a search or seizure is unreasonable is whether or not you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The standard for what is a reasonable expectation of privacy is what society considers to be reasonable, not what you individually consider to be reasonable.

So even though you are not on Facebook, all those people who ARE on it and are sharing publicly the most intimate details of their lives are moving the 4th Amendment boundary between searches and seizures that require a warrant and those that do not.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by Linear-b on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:15AM (#8102620)
It doesn't matter, they are still building a profile on you and selling it. These are called "shadow profiles".
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by opendais on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:34AM (#8102775)
Good luck with that. Even the credit reporting companies get confused and can't figure out who I am accurately. And I actively help them since I like having credit cards and the ability to get mortgage loans.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by Linear-b on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @03:29PM (#8104431)
Facebook has built a platform that's much more accurate and comprehensive than anything experian has, because experian isn't in the business of selling your political beliefs and sexual orientation and a hundred other demographics to marketers.

You can file a FOIA request with Facebook to see what they have on you. Other people have, and have gotten their dossiers. Have you had a phone number or mailing address in the past 10 years? If so, they've gotcha covered.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by Zigurd on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:30AM (#8102745)
Why do you wonder? Unless you have no public-facing products or publications you are personally directly involved in, it's perfectly rational to use social media for things that would be out in public and subject to whatever scrutiny anyone cares to apply to them, AND, at the same time, "make noises" as you so dismissively put it.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by marincounty on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:49AM (#8102487)
I sometimes wonder about using any site--including HN. Facebook would be easy to give up(It actually makes me more depressed, and the people I want on there left, or never joined.) HN is hard to give up.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by BankingAnon on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @01:31PM (#8103504)
HN tends to punish people using Tor or other methods to obfuscate their tracks. On the four or five other accounts I've abandoned, this is then first that allows me more than 3 minutes on the site without invalidating my token due to inactivity. I suspect because it's been a valid IP every time (or so they think).

You should not expect privacy on computer systems you do not own. HN included.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by Linear-b on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @07:20PM (#8105537)
"On computer systems" has a hollower ring now than it did a decade ago. Everything is on a computer system now. Even face to face interactions leave a plethora of metadata behind.

The nature of privacy has always been a function of social norms and technology, but given the directions we're headed in these days I think it's easy to make a case that the average citizen has given up a lot more privacy, then they have gained in convenience.

My life was easier when it took me an hour to download a megabyte and I spent more time outside... and I say that as a web developer.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by tertia on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:00AM (#8102536)
facebook won't declare me an enemy combatant and murder me if I say something they don't like.
Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by junto on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:15AM (#8102622)
While that is very true, should you state your grievances on Facebook, then it makes you easier to target.

All those anti-Israel comments on FB at the moment - bingo, you've been tagged as probably anti-Semitic, potentially a Muslim terrorism supporter and worth putting on a watch list.

Now if you happen to go to a humanitarian demo that is judged to be pro-Palestine then you are highly liked to be filmed (especially in the UK). The contents of those police cameras are later downloaded and processed. Face recognition software cross-references you with Facebook and other public people databases.

Searching....ping....found target...

- Name: <Tertia>...

- Anthropology: Caucasian

- Source: Facebook NSA hook

- Threat score: 1.3

- Upgrading threat score: + 2.5

Auto triggers:

- Flag Homeland Security

- Tag passport

- Watch social security number

- Track internet usage (log level: all)

It is probably an exaggeration as of today, but this is the system that the NSA is aiming for.

Re:Personal Privacy Is Only One of the Costs of NSA Surveill... by jahewson on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @12:45PM (#8103216)
The difference is that they choose to use Facebook.