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Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:07PM (#8037243)
Or, you know, leave everyone to their own devices, and let people choose the fields that engage them.

Males and females are not equal, in metabolism, strength, ability, or anything else. They have equal rights, but this does not mean that they deserve equal representation in all fields. Those with the highest merit deserve representation. Trying to fight this simple fact is the height of folly.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by rflrob on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:21PM (#8037330)
While it's true that women and men aren't the same, I think that there are good reasons to believe the level of inequality we have now is not due solely to natural inclination. This video of Neil deGrasse Tyson on minorities and science is apropos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ihNLEDiuM
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by steveklabnik on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:19PM (#8037318)
Until you've demonstrated programming has some biological basis, this 'argument' is absolutely ridiculous.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by crazy1van on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:35PM (#8037428)
I think it's less about ability and more about interest.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:41PM (#8037468)
Right, that's what this fixes.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:30PM (#8037787)
No, it isn't. You can't dictate interest.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:49PM (#8037907)
It is trivially easy to influence interest. http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/06/25/more-women-pick-co...
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:19PM (#8039068)
This study is about stereotypes, not interest, not merit, not anything that's actually relevant.

You know what shows interest? A female willingly taking and passing CS courses. Not this bullshit.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:33PM (#8039157)
What you need is a study showing how many women showed interest and then were talked out of it. http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156664337/stereotype-threat-wh...
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:38PM (#8039197)
> When female scientists talked to other female scientists, they sounded perfectly competent. But when they talked to male colleagues, Mehl and Schmader found that they sounded less competent.

Could it be that they, comparatively, are?

Nah. That would make too much sense.

Let's blame it on the all-powerful patriarchy, which we can't even prove to exist.

That's not insane at all.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:44PM (#8039244)
It's the same women, in conversations with men vs other women, sound different.

Edit: you're the first person to mention the patriarchy, let alone blame it.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @06:57AM (#8041445)
Yes, and the researchers aren't even considering the possibility that these women sound incompetent when talking to men, because they actually, comparatively, are.

They discount the most obvious explanation without even testing for it, and expect to be taken seriously. What a joke.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @09:12AM (#8041809)
Women suddenly become less competent when talking to men?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @09:33AM (#8041885)
The obvious hypothesis is that women sound less competent when talking to men because they are less competent than men, on average.

They don't sound less competent when talking to women because they aren't less competent than other women, on average.

Playing dumb won't help you win this argument. It will just make you look just as dumb as the researchers.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @10:06AM (#8042042)
http://schmader.psych.ubc.ca/publications/2011/Talking%20sho... our male and female samples were matched by rank, discipline, and research productivity and impact

The particular men and women chosen for the study were not, objectively speaking, different in competence. This is a study of perceived competence.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @10:26AM (#8042149)
> because they are less competent than men, on average.

Not necessarily in comparison to the specific researcher they're talking to. On average.

Reading comprehension is a great skill. You should look into it.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @12:21PM (#8042854)
I was responding to your post: Yes, and the researchers aren't even considering the possibility that these women sound incompetent when talking to men, because they actually, comparatively, are. The researchers were investigating how much of the perceived competence difference was real and how much was a difference in perception only. So they controlled for actual differences, and found a large difference in the way equally-competent men and women are perceived.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @12:28PM (#8042891)
You keep playing dumb. It's not working for you. It won't ever work for you.

The hypothesis is that the exhibited feeling of incompetence is because men are better than women on average.

How many times will I have to repeat this until you get it?

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @01:15PM (#8043176)
Oh it's you who has this hypothesis. I thought you were referring to something in on of the links I posted. So if that's your hypothesis, why not look for a study that tested it? http://www.economist.com/node/11449804 http://www.voanews.com/content/girls-get-better-grades-than-...

But aside from that, wouldn't you like to get the women are are actually good at math and science to get into STEM fields, even if they are a minority? I think that's a question we can actually do something about, even if we can't change how good women are at science. http://www.macleans.ca/general/girls-good-at-math-half-as-li... I'd like to encourage good female programmers, however many of them there are, to go into programming jobs.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by quantized on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @04:03PM (#8044197)
Has changing goalposts ever worked for you?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @04:42PM (#8044438)
I answered the original question first. If you don't like that paper, you can Google for more yourself. And yes, asking better questions works for me!
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by quantized on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @07:07PM (#8045123)
You answered a question about comparative scientist competence (which is highly objective, because it's judged on the basis of peer review of published work) with stats about elementary school grades handed out by teachers (which is highly subjective, because it's a virtually unchecked power, almost never judged by any outside auditor), not to mention the difference in age, task, environment -- basically every single criterion is different. It's not a question of liking anything. You're simply trying to move goalposts.

Judging by the various forms of intellectual dishonesty you've attempted thus far, I would gladly do my utmost to prevent anyone the least bit like you from finding employment anywhere near me for as long as I live.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @07:37PM (#8045223)
This thread started with drz saying we should leave everyone to their own devices, and "those with highest merit deserve representation". I agree that this should be happening, but I disagree that it is happening. drz then claimed that you can't dictate interest. I disagreed. drz claimed that only taking and passing CS courses can "show interest". This is obviously false; if ever a woman was interested but then discriminated against, she might not pass the CS course. I submitted an article on stereotype threat, which is one reason that competent women might not succeed in class or industry. I think drz took this to mean that I thought women were, on average, as competent as men. I admit to getting confused at that last change in topic since I don't think it's relevant or interesting. No one in the original article, or anyone else in this conversation, has made that claim.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:26PM (#8037763)
Men absolutely dominate in the 120+ IQ range, and high IQ is very strongly correlated with abstract reasoning.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:33PM (#8039161)
But do 120+ IQ people dominate computer programming?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:40PM (#8039208)
You're not going to do well in computer programming unless you can reason abstractly.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:42PM (#8039231)
You make this statement with no evidence.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @06:57AM (#8041443)
Programming is abstract reasoning. Apart from some syntax memorization, there's nothing more to it. Even design patterns are optional, and can be independently discovered.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by Zelphyr on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:35PM (#8037424)
I believe the sentiment is to at least expose girls to these fields more than we have. Whether they enter them as a career is of course their choice.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:28PM (#8037773)
The field isn't hidden. It's already exposed to males and females in equivalent amounts.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by tomp on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:13PM (#8037276)
> Males and females are not equal, in metabolism, strength, ability, or anything else.

More generally, people are not the same (I prefer "same" to "equal").

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:22PM (#8037337)
leave everyone to their own devices

Tons of men are recruited to the field, why not women?

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:29PM (#8037783)
Show me these magical affirmative action programs targeting straight white men.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:54PM (#8037937)
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:14PM (#8039042)
You do need individual programs for men as a valid counterpart for individual programs for women. Where are they?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:41PM (#8039220)
I don't need an individual program for men because the industry is a mass program for men. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/19/...
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @06:55AM (#8041440)
So you can't deliver on your claim at all.

You can't show any individual program for men, because there is no individual program for men.

You lose by default.

Thanks for your time.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Wednesday July 16, 2014 @09:11AM (#8041805)
How is it different from affirmative action? Change the gender and get a better chance of being hired.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by ambrice on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:17PM (#8037306)
How will they know if the field engages them without being exposed to it?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:29PM (#8037779)
None of us here got recruited into the field, and we still found out that it engaged us, didn't we?
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sp332 on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:27PM (#8039122)
I got recruited. 4 times. I'd rather be a doctor, but that seems intimidating and I don't see a way to "break into" it.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @05:35PM (#8039173)
Show me these magical affirmative action programs targeting straight white men.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by sdfghhasdf on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:09PM (#8037253)
amen.
Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by pokpokpok on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @12:16PM (#8037291)
Or, you know, leave everyone to their own devices, and let people choose the fields that engage them.

blacks and whites are not equal, in metabolism, strength, ability, or anything else. They have equal rights, but this does not mean that they deserve equal representation in all fields. Those with the highest merit deserve representation. Trying to fight this simple fact is the height of folly.

Re:9th Grade Girls Soldering by drz on Tuesday July 15, 2014 @01:33PM (#8037800)
Sure. West Africans are very successful in all forms of running, for example. Are you going to deny this?