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Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by primigenus on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @06:57PM (#7880919)
It blows my mind that Bret keeps giving talks in public and sharing his ideas for free when pretty much each of them could have been used as a startup pitch in return for likely investment. But I guess he's more interested in inspiring others than just committing to one idea for years. I'm glad we have him around.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by 3rd3 on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @07:39PM (#7881062)
This idealism appears to be one reason why he left Apple:

http://worrydream.com/Apple/

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by loup-vaillant on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @08:24PM (#7881204)
That's… horrible. It feels like he's under a gag order. I wager this stuff could be useful to all of us, but Apple just clings on this "Intellectual Property" like, like… Well, like any corporation.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by GuiA on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @08:52PM (#7881270)
Huh...?

He worked for a company out of his own will, and that company paid him in exchange for his work, with the full understanding that all ownership of the work would go to them. I mean, it's not even as if Apple hides that about them- that's one thing they tell you OVER and OVER when you interview with them.

He knew exactly what he was getting into when he accepted to work for them (and did so for many years), and he definitely doesn't seem to mind what he got out of it (salary + the ability to call himself an "ex-Apple employee" and extract the social proof/appeal to authority that comes with it).

I love Bret's work, but this page on his website is very distasteful and comes across as fairly petty.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by loup-vaillant on Thursday June 12, 2014 @04:29AM (#7882360)
> He worked for a company out of his own will

Did he?

I understand a guy like Brett Victor has more options than most people, but think of the statistics for a second. Most of us work for corporations. The only real choice here is which corporation. (There are other ways, but they often amount to helping corporations, or building your own. That doesn't exactly solve the problem.)

At the end of the day, one's gotta eat. Are you willing to starve to save your own soul? Neither am I. But I'd like to have my cake and eat it too anyway.

---

Background: I side with Noam Chomsky and most classical anarchists here: corporations are a systemic problem: they just concentrate too much power. We should dissolve them. As for the problems they solve (like shiny graphic cards), I'm sure we can think of a better way than corporate capitalism (no, I'm not thinking of command economies that are often associated with "socialism" —yet are anything but).

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by DaniFong on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @09:48PM (#7881425)
Maybe he once had a hope more ideas would see the light of day?

Maybe that hope was crushed and he realized he made a mistake.

The contract theory of morality does not admit well to asymmetry of information. Most organizations preach about the impact one will have, not exclusively about compensation. Certainly Apple would have, certainly Bret would have been looking for impact. Bret was at the informational disadvantage there.

In general, it seems, at least, that if employers decide not to do something with creative works, that they at least have some other life raft they can escape upon.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by sambeau on Thursday June 12, 2014 @07:24AM (#7882787)

   he got out of it (salary ...
This is an argument I've heard many employers use that is factually incorrect.

Every month, employees freely give their time to a company. The company is in debt to the employee. At the end of that month there is a financial reckoning and the debt is repaid. The moment the employee comes to work the following day the company is debt to the employee again.

I cannot stress this enough - for the whole month it is the Company that is in debt and should call itself lucky, not the employee.

It is employees that keep the economy going - not employers - as, at the end of each month billions have been lent to Companies by those who work there.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by nathell on Thursday June 12, 2014 @07:28AM (#7882799)
Not necessarily; that depends on one's particular arrangements. I, for example, get paid approximately mid-month, so I start out indebted to the company each month and the balance gradually shifts over time.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by seanmcdirmid on Thursday June 12, 2014 @09:39AM (#7883270)
I believe only the USA pays bi-monthly; elsewhere you usually only get paid monthly.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by noblethrasher on Thursday June 12, 2014 @02:56PM (#7885304)
I'm an exempt employee in the US and get paid monthly. The classified employees at my organization get paid weekly.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by gkya on Thursday June 12, 2014 @11:23AM (#7883905)
Is this your own opinion, or is there some books/articles/etc. backing it? I'm asking this because this stance you depict seems really correct and I'd like to find out more on it if possible.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by loup-vaillant on Thursday June 12, 2014 @05:37PM (#7886113)
There are exceptions, but most people are indeed paid like this, at the end of the month (or the end of the week). But this is more an outlook than a hard fact.

Another outlook is, the employee should count herself lucky to be authorized to work for a company. The company provide money to the employee, which means it feeds her. If it didn't the employee would have to find another benevolent corporation, or starve. Now there is still the occasional maverick who tries to start her own business, but mostly, employees rely on companies to eat.

Yet another outlook is, the company don't feed the employee. The customers of the company feed the employee. Which is why the customer is king: piss him off, and you won't see him again. Do that too much, and you your employees will starve. It will be your fault, and maybe the fault of some of your employees. It's certainly not the fault of the customer, who has every right to choose what to consume.

I personally find these three views (the one you awnsered to, an the two I mentioned) a bit extreme. But they're not strawmen either. Some people really do believe that. In my opinion, this is the sign of a deep problem. I don't know what exactly, but something is off with the current customer/employer/employee arrangement.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by enneff on Thursday June 12, 2014 @12:25AM (#7881813)
I don't think it's distasteful. He lays the blame where appropriate: it was his own "terrible mistake".
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by shasta on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @09:22PM (#7881358)
Nah, the companies pushing these contracts are the ones exhibiting distasteful behavior. That page is very tasteful.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by tripzilch on Saturday June 14, 2014 @01:17PM (#7893162)
> He knew exactly what he was getting into

> he definitely doesn't seem to mind what he got out of it

you might have glossed over the second entry in the FAQ, where he calls it a "mistake".

sounds to me he made an error in judgement that he would have liked to make differently, in hindsight.

IMO, in such circumstances it seems a bit cold to side with the corporation for the sole reason that they happen to be legally in the right. but maybe that's just me, being all compassionate and silly.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by chrisdevereux on Thursday June 12, 2014 @08:15AM (#7882936)
The really sad thing is how many great ideas must get forgotten because they were developed in secret and didn't align with the commercial interests of the company paying for it.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by faceyspacey on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @07:46PM (#7881086)
it blows my mind is how little of what he's put forth has led to others creating startups out of them.

...what blows my mind more though is he keeps giving talks and hasn't open sourced any of his software on github, like he said he would. i doubt he's working on some big product that puts all his software to use. it's all going to waste and could have helped propel the visions he's set forth. it makes zero sense.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by vilterp on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @09:41PM (#7881408)
Both the Light Table team (http://www.lighttable.com/2014/06/10/light-table-and-apples-...) and the Apple Swift lead (Playgrounds feature: http://nondot.org/sabre/) have explicictly cited Bret as an important influence — his ideas are certainly not going to waste.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by michael_nielsen on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @07:56PM (#7881117)
It is not going to waste. Deep ideas are more durable than either code or startups, but they often take longer to have an impact.

As an example, "Inventing on Principle" has inspired many people and companies to think more deeply about development environments, and to try implementing more speculative ideas. A skeptic can point out that much of that consequent work is of mixed quality, but that's just Sturgeon's Law. What matters is that more people will think better thoughts about more important problems. And that's certainly occurring as a result of Victor's talks and essays.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by callmevlad on Thursday June 12, 2014 @04:02AM (#7882301)
I decided to quit my job and start Webflow.com on the night that I saw Bret's Inventing on Principle video [1] and read his Magic Ink paper [2]. Based on lots of conversations I've had with other entrepreneurs, I'd say that a lot more people are inspired by Bret's work than you might think...

[1] https://vimeo.com/36579366

[2] http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by spyder on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @08:47PM (#7881252)
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by faceyspacey on Thursday June 12, 2014 @04:15AM (#7882331)
tangle is really old, and his least innovative stuff at this point. it hardly counts my friend. Bret needs to stop teasing us. At least deliver the code for the one he said he would put on github.

I think it's very obvious what needs to happen to software development right now. I'm straightup doing it--my startup is making come to life much of what Bret put forth in Javascript, where it should exist (on the web, not objective c and other technologies). He could help a lot by sharing his code, no matter what language it's in.

His stuff could change the entire landscape, and now. I get it--we're all stupid developers doing the status quo who can't think for ourselves and invent something new. I get his message. And yes, that's a big part of his message whether he knows it or not. But the point is that the stuff he's put forth for all the live coding and coding observability stuff needs to happen now and like a lot--it will enhance coding by several orders of magnitude. So, I don't need any more talks about how we must think. We need to make simply what he put forth. We need to get done his gospel already so he himself can see what it actually looks like and move to the next level.

My guess is he doesn't want to share the code because of some sort of philosophy that we need to do it ourselves, and more people need to be true thinkers and inventors like him, thinking outside the box. Fuck the philosophy. It's kinda arrogant. Release the code if ur not making ur own company out of it. I used to think he was starting his own company, which is why I never spoke up. But my latest prediction (after seeing this maker spaces drivel) is that he certainly is not.

...And it's drivel because he's making the whole point about observability regarding hardware startups, where it's way less of a big deal as in coding. Like, his breakthrough moment was when he pointed out how all us coders were so stupid for going along with how current coding tools work, which are totally unobservable. That is especially relevant in the abstract world of coding, whereas it is way less profound when it comes to concrete hardware objects, which by nature are observable. Not that it doesn't apply--it's just not at the level of breakthrough described in all his essays on his site.

ps. ur talkin to someone who's read every single essay on his site, cherished his every word. this maker space stuff is crap. he's fallin off, side tracked, whatever. I'd like to see him truly help get some of his ideas executed. It would take zero energy on his part--release the code is basically all im asking.

Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by Glench on Thursday June 12, 2014 @05:14PM (#7885986)
Have you tried asking yourself why Bret would not want to open source his demos? Can you think of any other reasons that don't pre-suppose he is "arrogant"?
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by faceyspacey on Thursday June 12, 2014 @06:47PM (#7886454)
Yea no good ones. He's OCD and not happy with his code. He has a lame philosophy that we must make it on our own and shouldn't have help, ie that providing the code will detract from it. ..he's the one saying he would. I get the sense he's just disorganized and all over the place, hyper focused with his latest discovery du jour. ie there is no grand plan. I used to hope he was buildin a commercial company but I just doubt he is. I want answers. If u people weren't so busy kissing his ass u would do. I love Bret Victor--I'm holding him accountable to the greatness he is.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by Glench on Friday June 13, 2014 @05:13PM (#7890865)
It seems your response says a lot more about your thinking than it does about Bret's. Perhaps you might try taking the view that Bret has really good reasons for doing what he's doing and try to figure out what they are, rather than presuming what he's doing is not for good reasons.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by faceyspacey on Thursday June 12, 2014 @04:00AM (#7882291)
yea fellas, i know this, and it's great. love light table, etc, etc. you're talking to someone who's read every single character on his site several times over. He needs to release his damn code. He could be many times more helpful that way. nobody's saying his talks and research isn't profoundly meaningful--but he could be more so if he released with the code. It's very hard to do a lot of the things he's hinted at. Code will help majorly.
Re:Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video] by vilterp on Thursday June 12, 2014 @12:06PM (#7884199)
Yeah, I actually agree. Him just open sourcing the Stop Drawing Dead Fish tool for instance would move things forward a lot -- just to see how the internal data structures & algos work.