News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by danielweber on Thursday May 15, 2014 @10:10AM (#7749491)
Without responding to your specific point, many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by bunderbunder on Thursday May 15, 2014 @10:59AM (#7749789)
Put me in that camp. I did care about DRM at one time, but that's tapered off quite a bit over the years.

A lot of this probably correlates with my having become something of a cord cutter. It's hard to get worked up over concerns that someone might be threatening my "right" to disposable content that I've decided I don't need, usually don't want, and tend to think of as having a net negative impact on my quality of life. Perhaps it's my jaded brand of libertarianism showing: I'm inclined to say that media companies have just as much a right to make it hard for me to give them money as I have a right to continue not giving them money. Ironically enough, we're actually working toward a common cause.

(edit: A response would be more edifying than a drive-by downvote, y'all.)

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by coldpie on Thursday May 15, 2014 @01:12PM (#7750784)
> Perhaps it's my jaded brand of libertarianism showing

The big catch is that it's an uneven equation because it's illegal to circumvent DRM due to the DMCA. If users could legally undo the DRM, I think you'd have a valid point: media companies are free to use whatever DRM they wish, and end-users and circumvent it if they are able. It would create an arms race which I believe the media companies would quickly lose. Instead, there's no legal weight in favor of the media companies, with no one standing up for end users' rights.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by bunderbunder on Thursday May 15, 2014 @02:45PM (#7751379)
I think you're missing my point. My freedom to not give them money isn't about being able to easily copy their media. It's about my freedom to not consume that media whatsoever.

To put it in language that's less easily interpreted as being pro-DRM: If HBO wants to use digital rights management to sink Game of Thrones into a cultural black hole, I'm more than happy to oblige them on that one.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by nullc on Thursday May 15, 2014 @03:04PM (#7751485)
> my freedom to not consume that media whatsoever

But this freedom is bounded in that it comes with a cost. If you don't consume their output then there is a segment of popular culture which you are excluded from... the social distance between you and friends and family are increased. It might be a black hole from your perspective, but lots and lots of the people around you are opting-in.

There are ways around this— there are many more things that its possible to have in common with others, and its possible to leverage your ignorance to create conversation— I'd rather hear a summary of a TV series from a friend than see the series. But it isn't as simple or free of a choice as you seem to be making it out to be.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by bunderbunder on Thursday May 15, 2014 @03:46PM (#7751769)
Yep. That segment of the population being people who are hard-pressed to carry a conversation that doesn't revolve around a subject that I don't enjoy talking about.

Believe it or not, that prospect doesn't actually depress me.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by Ihmahr on Thursday May 15, 2014 @04:22PM (#7752000)
> [ I don't like that content ]

But how will you know? You can't judge the content if you haven't seen it..

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by stinkytaco on Thursday May 15, 2014 @08:51PM (#7753183)
I thought like that in my 20s, but as I've gotten older I've decided life is too short to give everything a chance. I'd like to be really sure I'll like something before I give it a chance. Ironically, the Internet, which has probably decreased my access to content because of its role in the creation of DRM, has also increased my ability to see what's worth spending my time on.

Perhaps I lose out on some serendipity, but it's worth it so I don't feel like I've wasted my time.

Which brings us back around to the point about DRM. There's so much I can consume where my rights as an owner are respected that I don't often feel the need to bother with anything else. Hell, I can even get Game of Thrones on DVD if its that important to my social life.

And he didn't say he wouldn't enjoy it, he said he doesn't enjoy talking about it. Probably because he hasn't seen it. But the idea that one's under some obligation to see it in order to engage in conversation probably means one needs new friends.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by mreiland on Friday May 16, 2014 @06:26AM (#7754756)
I believe he's referring to the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKMbdfbpWvg

It's an interesting observation imo, you should watch the entire thing because when it starts out it doesn't seem as if it's relevant to this conversation.

having said that, I haven't watched television or cable in probably a good 15 years. If I find a show I really enjoy, I'll purchase the DVD/Blue-Ray and watch the entire thing mostly ad-free. And I prefer it that way.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by gurkendoktor on Thursday May 15, 2014 @04:58PM (#7752199)
There is a crazy abundance of things to do and content to consume, and life is short. I don't avoid DRM free books because I don't like them, I avoid them because there are other books that I'll have a great time with.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by spacelizard on Thursday May 15, 2014 @12:13PM (#7750328)
You could argue that most of the works available on Netflix are pretty superfluous, but this isn't really a reason to dismiss the reasons not to use DRM. For one, the issue extends to much more media than just video. Ebook DRM is way more scary.

In the case of any DRM though, it just so happens that not using their services is probably the only reasonable solution. So you're spot-on in that regard. The very existence of DRM is proof that these companies are on life support anyway.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by stinkytaco on Thursday May 15, 2014 @08:59PM (#7753204)
>Ebook DRM is way more scary.

I'm curios about your use of the term "scary". First of all, is the assumption that ebooks are a more valid form of information transmission or artistic expression than video? If it's purely a question of information, then I'd argue that ebook DRM is largely irrelevant because the Internet has surpassed books as the primary information delivery tool (see: Wikipedia). [side note: I think it's curious that as our access to some content has become more restricted, are access to other content has exploded. A person would never have had access to something like the Wikipedia outside a library 20 years ago, now you can get it on your phone wherever you are].

And it's not like print books have gone away, nor like they will in the near future. Indeed, publishers are desperate to continue to sell them to you because they have more control over the distribution chain. This applies to video as well, for that matter.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by Paul-ish on Thursday May 15, 2014 @08:17PM (#7753090)
I care when it is included in the browser. DRM usually needs to fingerprint the device it is on. DRM is essentially introducing another vector for track you, even if you don't consume DRM protected content.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by shkkmo on Thursday May 15, 2014 @05:01PM (#7752213)
First they DRM'd the videos, and I did not speak out— Because I don't watch TV and Movies.

Then they DRM'd the music, and I did not speak out— Because I have a nice vinyl collection.

Then they DRM'd the ebooks, and I did not speak out— Because I still use public libraries.

Then they DRM'd the news, and I did not speak out— Because I don't read the news.

Then they DRM'd me.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by mpyne on Thursday May 15, 2014 @05:22PM (#7752326)
The reason the slippery slope is considered a fallacy is because if you're not careful about the validity of your logic, it would apply equally well to any ill.

That would therefore mean that all bad things must be stopped with full force, because "First they $VERBd the $GROUP[i], and I did not speak out" would apply for the union of VERBs, GROUPs, and possible {i}s.

E.g. in this case you literally end with "Then they DRM'd me". Are you seriously trying to claim that the end state of Mozilla supporting EME is that DRM is used to physically hurt people?

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by shkkmo on Thursday May 15, 2014 @05:39PM (#7752405)
>Are you seriously trying to claim that the end state of Mozilla supporting EME is that DRM is used to physically hurt people?

Of course not. That last line is clearly meant to be absurd. I wanted break the slippery slope argument.

What I was trying to do was poke fun at the idea that DRM is okay as long it doesn't affect you directly. You should speak out against DRM, not because it is a slippery slope, but because it is wrong and it hurts people. The reason I think you should speak out against interning socialists is because it is wrong, not because of the slippery slope that it entails.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by mpyne on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:32AM (#7756000)
Fair enough. Poe's Law and all, it's hard to tell nowadays. :)
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by stcredzero on Thursday May 15, 2014 @12:10PM (#7750288)
many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts

I have yet to meet anyone who disagrees with the theory of evolution through natural selection who actually understands it well. Security, privacy, and cryptography are complicated subjects where the most potent effects are often epiphenomena. I don't have studies to back me up, but my impression from talking to most non technical people, is that they have only a hazy idea of what is involved.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by loup-vaillant on Thursday May 15, 2014 @01:52PM (#7751043)
To further the point, when 2 people diagree about facts (they disagree less often about morality), then at least someone is doing it wrong.

Might be you, might be me. Either way, contradictions are still false.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by bunderbunder on Thursday May 15, 2014 @04:49PM (#7752151)
Did you just place scientific theories and political opinions in the same epistemological category?

And here I thought postmodernism was dead.

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by stcredzero on Thursday May 15, 2014 @08:51PM (#7753182)
No. Scientific theories with cryptography and security. Both of those are closely associated with politics, but have verifiable truth.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by npsimons on Thursday May 15, 2014 @10:55AM (#7749762)
but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway.

Really? I hate to be the elitist asshole, but if people don't understand that making bits uncopyable is not in the realm of reality, then I would argue they don't understand basic facts. See Schneier's commentary on "making water not wet" and copy protection, eg https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0108.html#7

Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by streptomycin on Thursday May 15, 2014 @11:09AM (#7749855)
It's impossible to make bits uncopyable, but it's easy to make them less convenient to copy. That's the purpose of DRM.
Re:FSF condemns partnership between Mozilla and Adobe to sup... by sroerick on Thursday May 15, 2014 @12:15PM (#7750341)
It's not easy to make them less convienient to copy.

It is easy to outlaw it, though.