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Re:Glenn Greenwald: The NSA tampers with US-made routers by tptacek on Monday May 12, 2014 @04:42PM (#7735303)
Unless you're willing to 10x your integration costs by building a reliable verification process --- something that even specialists in hardware verification don't actually have --- and then painstakingly applying it to every piece of equipment you receive, full board schematics don't help you. For that matter, "free software" and "open source" are probably providing a false sense of security.
Re:Glenn Greenwald: The NSA tampers with US-made routers by galvanist on Monday May 12, 2014 @05:32PM (#7735532)
For some hardware attacks, like transistor-level dopant mask swaps, there isn’t any reliable way to detect them, not even optical inspection (because the layout is unchanged) nor functional testing (because passing BIST and external benchmark results can be faked). See the paper from UMass: https://people.umass.edu/gbecker/BeckerChes13.pdf

Since the “detection” I’m referring to is already extremely difficult before the chip even leaves the legitimate chip manufacturer’s facility, what hope could someone have of opening a modern IXP-scale router and determining if any of the zillion chips inside has been trojaned by double-0-mailman?

Re:Glenn Greenwald: The NSA tampers with US-made routers by tptacek on Monday May 12, 2014 @05:34PM (#7735539)
I think we're operating from the assumption that the fab is itself not compromised; if you think it might be, you're right, all is lost. But I think we're converging on the same point: all is lost anyways.
Re:Glenn Greenwald: The NSA tampers with US-made routers by droopyEyelids on Monday May 12, 2014 @10:24PM (#7736334)
I know you're a noted security researcher but it seems like you're write about security as if it were a binary "secure or insecure".

How do your comments in this thread relate to the fact that nothing can ever be perfect, and different degrees of sophistication in security can only ever reduce the probability of an attacker's success, or the percentage of attackers that make it through everything?

Re:Glenn Greenwald: The NSA tampers with US-made routers by brownbat on Monday May 12, 2014 @08:58PM (#7736160)
This raises an interesting point about "tamper revealing" methods of security. Open source, publicized hashes of executables, even key exchange protocols, all of these prevent attacker tampering by making it more likely attacks (or even just bad code) will get noticed. They don't strictly prevent tampering, they discourage it.

Take DHKE. It "defends" against MITM. But it doesn't strictly prevent it. An attacker could perform the protocol with both Alice and Bob separately, then guard the line and tamper with any communications on that channel that attempt to confirm the shared secret. The attacker couldn't win against a determined Alice and Bob, though, because A&B could theoretically use other channels, or even publicly broadcast some confirmation of the shared secret. So the smart attacker is "probably discouraged" from the noisy MITM.

But how many key exchange implementations actually use separate (availability ensuring) channels to confirm no one is in the middle? It's prohibitively expensive to verify no one's attacking something that no one ever attacks.

But then again, things no defender verifies are attractive to attackers. And some attackers are willing to get noticed 9 times out of 10 to land the one payout. "Tolerance for getting caught" is not always zero, that's another variable that complicates our Nash equilibrium here...