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Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by dragonwriter on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:08PM (#7581921)
Corruption: You give money, etc., to the public representative to influence their action.

Petition: You expend resources to advocate your views to a public representative.

Lobbying: You expend resources to have a third party advocate your views to a public representative.

Lobbying is a form of petition. It sometimes draws attention because corruption becomes a technique -- just as is the case sometimes with direct petition -- but it is as different from corruption as direct petition is.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by makmanalp on Sunday April 13, 2014 @03:13PM (#7582512)
In the Ottoman Empire, Fridays were some of the busiest and were reserved for the emperor (Padishah) and council (Divan) to listen to appeals of court cases and the complaints of citizens. This was supposed to keep them in touch with the needs of their people and help them develop some compassion. Maybe we need some of this kind of guaranteed access to the representatives, which anyone can sign up for.

No staffer-only meetings, the representative must sit through it and must fulfill a quota of X office hours per month, set according to their schedule. Each person / group gets 15-20 minutes. The hours can be cancelled up to 24 hours before for emergencies but must be made up within a week. How does that sound?

I get a bit mad when people suggest that representatives don't have time for that. That's their job, damnit! Make time.

This would really cut down the power of nepotism / cronyism in lobbying and bring politicians back down to earth, closer to the people they represent. Everyone should have equal access to their representative.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by leaveyou on Sunday April 13, 2014 @03:38PM (#7582623)
"the representative must sit through it and must fulfill..." That sounds great. You can start lobbying for it to become law. I bet the "representatives" want to hear more of your opinions :)
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by NegativeK on Sunday April 13, 2014 @11:33PM (#7584390)
Even eight hours a week -- a fifth of the work week -- doesn't sound like it'd be enough time to get to all of the complaints and issues.

15 minutes per issue for eight hours (no accounting for breaks or time between) would be 32 issues. Per week. Even 40 hours a week is 160 groups, which seems pretty small given the size of the US.

Lobbying and staffers exist because the time of our representatives is really limited. I think it's a really awful solution, but I'm not surprised that it exists.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by makmanalp on Monday April 14, 2014 @04:21AM (#7585057)
I think this is a fair point, but I'm arguing for this in addition to all the other ways we have right now, including emailing, letters and phoning, which staffers mostly deal with. The point here is to get representatives to spend face to face time with their people on a regular basis instead of the cold aggregate summary from a staffer.

To make things more time efficient, you could even say than more than 5 people, with a designated spokesperson, can group together to block out an hour of time instead of making the representative hear the same issue the 5th time, and they have the benefit of being able to explain one subject in depth in an undivided manner.

Today we have the most amazing transportation and telecommuting technology available to perform duties in D.C., along with staffers to help. If representatives still can't make time for their constituency, maybe we ought to rethink their work division and responsibilities. Otherwise we run the risk of having presidents who don't know the price of milk.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by Zigurd on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:22PM (#7581971)
The practical definition of lobbying also includes hiring the relatives of people in positions of power, and funding sinecures. It amounts to corruption with a fig leaf.

We don't have a government that produces representative policy outcomes for reasons of corruption and systemic flaws, like bad election mechanisms.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by selmnoo on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:26PM (#7581985)
Precisely. The daily beast has more to say about this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/27/get-elected...

I think most people are not aware how commonplace this is.

Take Senator Ron Wyden’s son, Adam—directly upon graduation from his Columbia MBA program he started his own hedge fund, no doubt capitalizing on contacts he made interning at the $19-billion fund of one of his father’s supporters, David Shaw. “Not many college kids get to intern on a D.E. Shaw portfolio for the summer,” Brian Marshall, who once ran the fund, was quoted as saying in a 2011 Bloomberg article on the younger Wyden.

It might be a stretch here, but I think this is quite related to Piketty's groundbreaking book on capital -- this is the nature of the beast, wealth remains in the family through connections, and this is just one of the ways how it happens.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by rayiner on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:30PM (#7582008)
Your article doesn't give any insight into how "commonplace" this is.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by selmnoo on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:50PM (#7582100)
You don't think so? That is the implication I got from the tone of the article and the handful of examples given. I heard Clare Malone on NPR talking about the article she wrote, and if I recall correctly she actually used the word "commonplace" to describe the nepotism going on.

We all know how many people get jobs because of connections... the privileged among us just take it for granted -- indeed because it so unremarkable we often just forget how we got there or don't think much of it (I'll confess that I initially got a well-paying job (that I was entirely unqualified for) purely because of family connections). Just think how many of these backroom "hey instead of paying me $2000 for my campaign, hire my daughter who's having trouble finding employment" dealings there are that go unreported and are never found out. I'd say it absolutely is commonplace.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by twoodfin on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:15PM (#7582226)
We all know how many people get jobs because of connections...

No, I don't think we all know this. Most of the people I know did not get jobs through family connections. I suspect a trend analysis would show that the number of high-income workers who achieved their position through nepotism or some other form of non-achievement-based social connection is declining, not rising.

We're social animals, and "connections" will always be valuable. I don't see any evidence that D.E. Shaw treated Wyden's son differently because they wanted something out of his father.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by rayiner on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:30PM (#7582306)
Ron Wyden is a Stanford graduate. His son Adam is a graduate of Wharton undergrad and Columbia business school. Plenty of people similarly situated get a DE Shaw internship who don't have a senator for a father. I'm sure the name didn't hurt, but what kind of favor can be cashed in offering someone's son an internship he's qualified for anyway?
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Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by rayiner on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:54PM (#7582418)
Like I said, I'm sure the name helped. But lots of Wharton undergrads get internships with DE Shaw or similar firms over the summer. Firms like DE Shaw hire dozens of interns each summer. They use their summer programs to meet their entry level hiring needs.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by judk on Sunday April 13, 2014 @07:47PM (#7583701)
Of course, his Wharton admission was not independent of family status. It can benhard to separate government corruption from general privilege, though.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by rayiner on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:07PM (#7582185)
The plural of anecdote isn't "data."
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by selmnoo on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:14PM (#7582220)
But ahh, as I found out on HN the other day, it actually is: http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/04/the-plural-of-an... ;)

Seriously though, after working at a prestigious institution and seeing how often lunch and dinner conversations between peers involved talk of how "my daughter can work in your group!" and "your son can work in my group!", my intuition tells me this is just the way it is - nepotism is pretty much everywhere. Sure, more anecdotes, but that's all I got until someone does some solid research on it.

For now here're two more articles, that may have some more information: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/01/3...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/07/in-prais...

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by coldtea on Sunday April 13, 2014 @05:56PM (#7583246)
Actually it is. An anecdote is an observation. And data is just a larger set of observations.

There's no requirement that data must be exhaustive. And in most social science research, it never is (actually that is frequently the case in hard sciences, too).

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by dTal on Monday April 14, 2014 @12:37PM (#7587153)
The issue is that anecdotes come with a whopping big side of selection bias. Sure, it's technically "information", but calling it "data" implies rigor. There are a lot of alien abduction anecdotes, but this tells you more about humans than it does about aliens.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by Zigurd on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:39PM (#7582048)
Here is a 347 page report on nepotism and other abuses in Congress: http://www.citizensforethics.org/pages/family-affair-report-...

While it is large in scope, this is mostly about how campaign funds are funneled to relatives, and doesn't appear to include favoritism in banking, lobbying, foundations, etc.

Congress is bought and our laws are bought.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by coldtea on Sunday April 13, 2014 @05:50PM (#7583218)
Oh, the joy if every social issue could be communicated along with a nice set of numbers ("This is quite commonplace, as it happens 30% of the time, or 2,235 of 7431 cases").

Unfortunately sometimes citizens have to resort to the old-fashioned and not 100% accurate "judge for yourself, based on the partial information that is available, to figure out what the bigger picture is".

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by crusso on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:51PM (#7582111)
Can you imagine the scope of the research to meaningfully have insight on how commonplace such a thing is?

The people with the funds and power to connect all those dots are in the set of people who are somewhat likely to have benefitted from those connections. I don't see a big move to get that research funded any time soon.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by kevingadd on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:11PM (#7581928)
Well, many lobbyists advocate your views by giving money, goods or services to public representatives... but I suppose it is distinct in that you are not the one directly offering the bribes and 'favors'.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by dragonwriter on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:48PM (#7582088)
> Well, many lobbyists advocate your views by giving money, goods or services to public representatives...

Sure, that's a tactic that happens in lobbying, just as its a tactic that happens in people directly advocating their own views.

I am not saying that lobbying is free of corruption. But the reason the two often go together isn't that lobbying is fundamentally corruption, its that lobbying is an expensive form of petition, which makes its community of users overlap considerably with the set of people/groups with the resources to effectively engage in corruption independently of whether or not they were using an intermediary to do advocacy to public representatives.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by curiouscats on Sunday April 13, 2014 @08:00PM (#7583743)
It seems to me the truth of corruption versus petition is if the politician sells their vote for cash or actually listens to the merits and makes a decision.

Now that is hard to judge from the outside, but that is the real difference.

I suspect many people believe those in power now are mostly selling their vote for cash not making decisions based on the merit and just happening to side with those giving piles of cash because they heard those people give explanations of why favoring them was a good move for the country.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by igl on Sunday April 13, 2014 @09:38PM (#7584058)
A few years later it is often not. But politicians can lie legally even if uncovered and documented in lengths afterwards. Funny fact: German president Horst Köhler had to resign from office for saying the truth.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by ChrisPebble on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:34PM (#7582024)
A lobbyist giving money, goods, or services directly to a representative for their personal use would still be corruption. The distinction usually is that you offering to spend money on their behalf for a campaign but if they directly benefit from money or a gift that sort of behavior is usually prosecuted.
Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by dragonwriter on Sunday April 13, 2014 @01:49PM (#7582099)
> The distinction usually is that you offering to spend money on their behalf for a campaign

Which is also usually corruption and a violation of campaign finance laws which prohibit coordination between unlimited "independent" expenditures and candidates or campaign committees controlled by them.

Re:Google, once disdainful of lobbying, now a master of Wash... by snowwrestler on Sunday April 13, 2014 @02:21PM (#7582254)
Any such giving would be a federal crime and happens very rarely.