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Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @08:05AM (#7514902)
French presidents have had mistresses, left their wives, German chancellors have had three failed marriages, or a childless marriage. We had an openly gay foreign minister and ministers who refused to say "god" in their swearing in ceremony.

Would the voters be so lenient if those chancellors had donated $1000 to an NPD campaign instead?

I'm European as well, and I agree (and like) that we are relatively unconcerned about our leaders' personal lives, but I don't think that contributions to political campaigns would be considered "private life", at least in our small corner of the continent.

EDIT: Curiously, we recently had a similar situation: the director of our biggest food bank (an NGO) gave an interview were she said that we must "re-learn to live poorer", that we "can't eat steak every day if we can't afford it" and that "we are poorer, but there's no poverty".

The interview did originate a major backlash, including a petition pushing for her resignation from the organization (which didn't happen).

So at least in some Europeans countries, political views exposed in public aren't considered just private issues.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by cousin_it on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @08:43AM (#7515053)
> I don't think that contributions to political campaigns would be considered "private life", at least in our small corner of the continent.

I'm not sure the issue is really about privacy. Let's go on a small tangent here.

Do you know why secret voting is considered important for democracy? In fact, it's seen as a good feature of a voting system if a voter cannot prove to a third party that they voted a certain way, even if they really want to.

The reason is that democracy works best if your vote is a free expression of your political views, and can't be easily influenced by money or threats. If you have the option of proving your vote to a third party, then the third party can bribe or extort you. If you don't, they can't. (Of course there are more complicated vote buying schemes, but it's worth having some safeguards against the simplest one, at least.)

Note that we don't just have laws that stop the government from buying people's votes, because the government is not the only actor that can buy people's votes. We also want to stop third parties from doing completely legal things that add up to vote buying or vote extortion.

As you can see, the issue isn't really about privacy. The issue is that people should be free to support the political movements they like, and not be punished for it. If you make it harder for people to support the political movements they like, even if your actions are completely legal, you'll get fewer people supporting the movements they like, and more people supporting the movements that others tell them to support. In other words, you get less democracy and more mob rule, or "rule by social pressure" if you prefer. I'm not saying that "rule by social pressure" is a bad system, it might even be better than democracy in some ways, but you have to be honest with yourself if that's what you really support.

And that's why I think attacking Eich for his donation is wrong.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by parasubvert on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:36AM (#7515390)
You're taking this too far. It's one thing to expect a private donation to remain private, or a private vote to remain private. Brendan donated to a cause with a public database.

When it comes to combating interests, the powerful have money, the masses have numbers. Social pressure is not less democratic, it IS democratic in its purest form - it's a group of people standing up for what they believe in. To dissuade social pressure is to defend the status quo. I would much rather have noisy, angry cantankerous democratic debates than a world that purely does what it is told.

And I would also prefer more civilized, structured and rational debate on public policies such as these to the angry/noisy pressure approach. But the disagreements themselves aren't rational, and the powerful have long used their power to dissuade such debate from occurring lest people recognize their irrationality. So you get noise.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by cousin_it on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:51AM (#7515477)
Aren't you sort of conflating democratic debate with social pressure? I think it's okay to have loud debates against someone who disagrees with me politically, but it's not okay to refuse to hire them for that reason. Boycotting their products is sort of an intermediate case, but I feel that it's closer to the latter than the former.

> Social pressure is not less democratic, it IS democratic in its purest form - it's a group of people standing up for what they believe in.

I think I slightly disagree with you on that as well, but it's a subtle point so it's okay if people miss it. Basically, by your standards civil war would be the most democratic thing ever. Groups standing up for what they believe in! Yeah! But to me democracy is at least partly about preventing civil war, like ritualized aggression prevents killing in the animal world. Two armies agree to settle the conflict by counting the soldiers on each side, instead of having a battle, and agree to not escalate the conflict if they lose. In other words, if you pressure your political opponents by any means outside the political process, then you're moving away from democracy as I see it. (Though of course there are Prisoner's Dilemma considerations because your opponents might use these tactics even if you don't.)

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by parasubvert on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @03:05PM (#7518133)
I am conflating social pressure with democratic debate as I don't see much distinction.

As for civil wars, you're right to a point, it is an extreme form of democracy... IF they're about the populace vs. an illegitimate minority ruling class that's blocking the will of the people. Civil wars are usually fought about who has the power to rule who, so it's all about ultimately conflicting ideologies anyway! The French Revolution was democracy in action against Le Ancien Régime, but as with any revolt, it can (and was) be perverted to create a new autocracy. The American Civil War was also due to disagreements about the scope of democracy at a regional level, with regards to slavery. Other civil wars were driven by religion, etc. that might be a minority vs. a majority (usually the majority wins, unless they don't have the guns).

Complicating matters is that one of the reasons the US (in theory) has a stable Federalist government is the checks and balances AGAINST democracy: representative government, term limits, states rights, separate judiciary and executive from legislators, different voting cadences for house, senate, and president, etc. This deliberately favours minority protection and slows progress / stabilizes the system in the face of intense disagreement in the hopes that the political process won't break down as compromises are slowly made. It's hard to argue for civil war if there's always an election coming up. Though at some point it might not work and we'll be back to civil war, especially if we ever truly get to a 50/50-ish democratic split on irreconcilable ideological grounds and have gridlock (i.e. I fear another decade of today's political situation).

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by ubernostrum on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:16AM (#7515247)
The issue is that people should be free to support the political movements they like, and not be punished for it.

When the political movement has as its sole and only goal depriving a subset of the population of a basic right, your argument falls apart. And that was the goal of Proposition 8.

Additionally, freedom to speak comes with the freedom of others to shun you for what you say, or to speak freely in condemning your opinions. It cannot be a one-way street.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by cousin_it on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:19AM (#7515261)
Sorry, I don't see how the argument falls apart. Can you point out the specific step that fails? I can see how it would fall apart if the goal was to deprive certain people of their right to vote, but that seems to be different from what you're saying.
Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by ubernostrum on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:27AM (#7515315)
The right of consenting adults to enter, unfettered, into loving committed relationships is rather fundamental to the way Western society works.

If you think it should be put up for vote, be prepared to put your right up for vote first.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @12:00PM (#7516438)
As someone who was brought up in a non-married home, I can assure you that marriage isn't required to have loving committed relationships. I'd vote against Prop.8 because eliminating the gender/sexuality discrimination is still a positive move, but if there was an option to eliminate all State-granted marriages, I'd vote for that instead.
Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @10:50AM (#7515906)
I never said it was about privacy, per se. sentenza wrote that here in Europe, there's a separation between private and professional life, in that people aren't professionally judge by actions in their private life. I argued that such is true, but that at least in the subset of Europe I live in, contributions to political campaigns are not considered to be part of the private sphere.
Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by cousin_it on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @11:13AM (#7516074)
Well, it seems to be considered kind of private in Germany: http://www.loc.gov/law/help/campaign-finance/germany.php

The parties, in return, must submit yearly financial statements to the legislature. In these, only contributors of more than €10,000 per year must be named. (...) In addition, the accounting responsibilities of the parties free individual members and candidates from burdensome paperwork, while the focus of the disclosure rules on large donors protects the privacy of candidates, elected officials, and small donors.

In general I agree with the view expressed by Kent Pitman (famous Lisp hacker) here: http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2010/11/06/on_the_pri... . Basically he says privacy outweighs transparency for small donations, but not large ones. In particular, he mentions Keith Olbermann being suspended by his employer for making a small donation similar to Eich's.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @11:35AM (#7516249)
But that's whether the campaign should have divulged (or be forced to divulge) the donation; that's not the question at hand. We already know that they did, and that the information is public.

If you want to argue that the Campaign for Prop. 8 shouldn't have to be forced to divulge who made small donations, we can discuss that. But that doesn't imply that we should bury our heads and ignore information which is already public (and which the donors knew was to be published).

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by coldpie on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @08:51AM (#7515094)
> The issue is that people should be free to support the political movements they like, and not be punished for it.

Do you have a loved one? Suppose I use my political clout to separate you from them, permanently. You can never see your partner again.

Do you think I should be punished for such behavior?

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by cousin_it on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:12AM (#7515222)
It seems to me that you're basically declining my offer to have a discussion on the meta level ("what should be the rules of the political game?"). You're trying to discuss the object-level issue instead ("what should be the outcome of the political game?"). That could be an interesting discussion for some people, but I'm not interested in it, sorry...
Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by coldpie on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:19AM (#7515259)
See my post below for a response. There are two different kinds of political issues and it's entirely rational to treat them separately.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7515083

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by gcp on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @08:59AM (#7515128)
Do you think I should be punished for such behavior?

I think you should be applauded for enacting laws that make it possible to protect a woman from an abusive man, or for locking up dangerous criminals.

Your example is a bit too vague to be useful.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by coldpie on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:10AM (#7515207)
Abuse is generally the exception to the loving relationship rule. You're being intentionally obtuse. If I had intended abuse to factor into the decision, I would have specified that.

Obviously I'm trying to draw a parallel between homosexual relationships being deemed as deviant or second-class and something the parent may have understood, namely the pain of being separated from a loved one for no reason.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by Yorrrick on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:10AM (#7515208)
There is a cause I believe in pationately, but somehow not everyone sees it the way I do. Do you think it's ok for me to use hyperbole, if I'm sufficiently convinced I'm defending the right viewpoint?
Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by sehr on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @08:30AM (#7514992)
contributions to political campaigns would be considered "private life"

What even is the difference between personal & professional life? Performing actions during working hours, or while simply being employed by the company?

I feel this lack of demarcation is a big part of the argument, it's such a fuzzy and wishy washy line that nobody agrees upon.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @10:07AM (#7515574)
I'd say that it's deeper than that: in my opinion, people who divide life into personal and professional are missing a large chunk, which could be called as Public, or Social life. And there is necessarily an overlap between that and professional life, because most people work in a social organization (like companies) or at least interact with clients.

And so I think the issue is that, while a political opinion can be considered part of the private realm, it's not unfounded to consider a contribution to a political campaign - which has a direct impact in society - as part of the public realm, and hence open to scrutiny.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by sentenza on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @09:35AM (#7515379)
Hm. Your examples are good, but have one flaw, though: Both the NPD thing and the food bank example are cases in which the controversial act is, thematically, close to the professional role of the person in question. A politician should be scrutinized if he associates with radical political movements, just as a food bank representative can't foul-mouth the activities of the NGO she is heading.

To construct an analogy regarding that Eich guy: It would of course be problematic if he was connected in some way to Microsoft or Oracle. Paid speaking engagements come to mind as an example.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @11:08AM (#7516032)
I don't think she was criticizing the actions of the food bank; it was closer to an opinion on the country as a whole. When she said "we", she meant the whole population, not the members nor users of the organization.

I think your point has some merit, but playing Devil's advocate, if one considers this an humans rights issue - which many people do -, isn't it close to every organization?

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by sentenza on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @02:01PM (#7517608)
Oh, I misunderstood. Then that example is indeed an interesting counterpoint.

You are of course right in that human rights issues are special. But there are also other human rights issues for which this could be done.

The death penalty comes to mind.

Also, Mozilla is a worlwide organization. Why does this become so important now, when the US has changed opinions on homosexuality? In some parts of the world, gay marriage has been accepted by the mainstream for years now and there are other parts of the world where it will not be acceptable for a very long time.

Re:Jwz and Brendan Eich discuss the origins of JavaScript (2... by icebraining on Wednesday April 02, 2014 @02:26PM (#7517825)
You are of course right in that human rights issues are special. But there are also other human rights issues for which this could be done. The death penalty comes to mind.

Sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar backlash had him donated to the campaign against Proposition 34. But how is that an argument against the current issue?

Also, Mozilla is a worlwide organization. Why does this become so important now, when the US has changed opinions on homosexuality? In some parts of the world, gay marriage has been accepted by the mainstream for years now and there are other parts of the world where it will not be acceptable for a very long time.

Because it was now that Mozilla elected a CEO who donated to a campaign against gay marriage? I don't get your point.