News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: why isn't RDF more popular on HN? by acdha on Saturday March 29, 2014 @10:13AM (#7492273)
I personally stopped waiting for RDF to become relevant after years of fighting with impenetrable, mutually incompatible specs (page A refers to draft B which has subsequently mutated or 404ed, etc. and although it's years later nobody has updated anything and all of the examples predate either), and horrible tools — nothing release quality, examples don't validate, bugs unfixed for years in the issue trackers, etc. Vendors promise that everything will be sunshine and rainbows if you buy their commercial offerings but the costs are high enough to make any conceivable benefit dubious, etc.

It seems like the single most useful thing which could happen for adoption would be cleaning that up: a clear use case which isn't already well solved and a good tutorial outlining the benefits with non-trivial examples which follow the current standards, validate and introduce production quality tools. If any of that exists, it's managed to stay completely off the mainstream computing radar, which is a pity given the number of smart people who've poured considerably amounts of time into it.

As an example: a lot of the RDF community hated schema.org when it was announced because it used HTML5 microdata instead. If you were a web developer, the case for microdata was easy: add a couple of simple HTML attributes, use one of multiple high-quality validators to test your markup, and Google/Bing/etc. would return better search results for your data. At the same time, it was daunting to write an RDFa equivalent because there were no complete, current, non-contradictory docs and examples, the W3C validator had been broken for over a year (it was at least up, unlike all of the other online validators) and nothing actually supported it so you'd be investing hours or days instead of minutes in the hope that at some point in the future it would become useful. Most people with jobs to do are just going to wait until the demand side of that equation is more favorable.

The best example of linked data in widespread usage is Facebook's Open Graph markup but it appears that almost everyone simply stops as soon as they get the desired results in Facebook and, predictably, almost none of the examples actually validate because of tooling and cultural issues.

Re:Ask HN: why isn't RDF more popular on HN? by sktrdie on Saturday March 29, 2014 @01:22PM (#7492979)
But how do you explain the large amount of research going into these topics? They must be linked to industry and therefore used otherwise there wouldn't be so many publications on things like RDF. Perhaps HN and the startup culture likes to concentrate on less academic things, but you can't just ignore an entire field of research simply because the tools weren't mature enough or minimal enough when you first used them.

Perhaps the Semantic web community is doing a bad job at making these topics exciting, but the concepts still stand or else there wouldn't be an entire branch of research dedicated to them.

So in my opinion we should be more positive about the very valuable knowledge being generated by these communities, and perhaps transform it or create tools around them to make them more user friendly and more exciting.

I guess overall what I'm saying is that the concepts of the Semantic web are valid no matter the cumbersome culture around them. We should judge the ideas not the tools.

Re:Ask HN: why isn't RDF more popular on HN? by Someone on Saturday March 29, 2014 @04:49PM (#7493868)
There's a lot of literature on Turing machines, too, but nobody builds them in silicon, either.

RDF is for databases what Turing machines are for computation: the minimal model that abstracts away as much as is possible without sacrificing capabilities but ignoring anything performance (memory usage, execution time) related.

Re:Ask HN: why isn't RDF more popular on HN? by acdha on Saturday March 29, 2014 @09:48PM (#7494784)
There are two separate thoughts here:

1. I'm not saying the sem web concept is useless but that poor quality and unnecessarily high costs make it a worse deal. More practical focus on specs and solid software engineering would avoid making that trade-off worse unnecessarily.

2. Many topics which are of interest to academics either aren't generally useful and too many academics are dismissive of mundane concerns like software engineering. My first point falls solidly into that latter case. The former case isn't proven – it's entirely possible that we'll eventually see something interesting develop with more time, although as another commenter pointed out, it's likely that we'll see something different which uses the good parts but doesn't give up as much for theoretical purity. Of course, it's also possible that they'll spend more time having academic debates over HTTP range-14 and what will actually be adopted will come from outside the current semweb community entirely – after all, the “Web” in SemanticWeb refers to a technology which saw rapid growth due to ease of adoption, even though the academic hypertext community wasn't impressed because it was too simple.

In every case, more attention to building useful tools would massively increase the number of people working with semweb technology and lower the cost for everyone doing research. Everyone who wants that class of technologies to succeed should be focused on lowering that barrier to entry.

Re:Ask HN: why isn't RDF more popular on HN? by mcot2 on Saturday March 29, 2014 @10:20AM (#7492290)
Could not have said it any better. I kind of want to rm my posts now. This expresses my exact frustrations.

RDF isn't just XML! Look for this tool that does JSON serialization!

* looks for such a tool, finds a broken mess