News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by jacquesm on Friday August 07, 2009 @02:00AM (#747109)
ouch... I love the 'stop making this so complicated bit'.

While some people really don't get it I'm pretty sure that most people could learn how to program with some competence.

The only metric I've found to measure programmer competence reliably is how big a project you can manage to complete. Some people get stuck at around 100 lines, others in the thousands or tens of thousands, some can keep their rudder straight across 100's of thousands of lines.

The latter takes extreme self discipline and organization.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by haberman on Friday August 07, 2009 @04:32AM (#747286)
I disagree; what takes extreme self discipline and organization is doing in 3,000 lines of code what a less organized developer would have done in 15,000. Code is a liability; developers who can get to the point save you in complexity and maintainability.
Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by blasdel on Friday August 07, 2009 @02:21AM (#747140)
LOC is a horrible metric for this, given the degree to which morons can get comfortable with copy-paste and IDE-generated boilerplate.

Gzip-bytes of source FTW.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by nostrademons on Friday August 07, 2009 @03:16AM (#747210)
"you can manage to complete"

Implicit in the notion of completing a project is the certainty that the project manager will change their mind, usually after you have written 95% of it. If you copied & pasted those hundred thousand lines, you will have to change something in at least 100 different places. At that point, you'll give up in despair, proclaim the change impossible, and have the PM cancel the project in a fit of frustration. Thus, not complete.

LOC actually sorta makes sense in this context.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by jacquesm on Friday August 07, 2009 @02:24AM (#747143)
Good point, I hadn't thought of the ease with which text can be copied and how much garbage an IDE will spit out. Thanks!

Clever trick to measure the real information content of code using gzip too.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by Dove on Saturday August 08, 2009 @02:13AM (#749039)
A good method. The skills required to create or navigate a codebase of 100, 5000, or 100,000 lines are different not only in degree but in kind. Behaviors optimal in the first case can be brutally maladaptive in the last, and vice versa. A preference for global variables or multi-threaded solutions says a lot about the size of project one is comfortable with.

But beyond the practical, what you're really measuring is the ability to break down a large problem, solve individual pieces, reason about how those interact, and iterate. That is the critical intellectual muscle that makes programmers reliably great.

I remember a few projects I abandoned when their size outgrew my ability to comprehend them. It took multiple attempts with new methods to break through certain complexity barriers. I could not write a program longer than about 500 lines until I had learned the practical use of subroutines and data structures. I could not write a program longer than a few thousand lines without a sense of taste when it came to objects and modules. And I could not write a program of significant size until I reliably turned out code that could be comprehended at a glance after months or weeks away, as my own throughput guaranteed it might be that long between visits to disparate parts of the codebase.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by jacquesm on Sunday August 09, 2009 @04:41AM (#750537)
Hah! I remember that... I was still a kid, I really wanted to write a music composition program. One attempt after the other, this giant, monolithic piece of spaghetti. I just could not be done. Around the 700 or 800 line mark I lost overview and it would grind to a halt forever more subtle bugs to fix.

This went on for weeks, maybe even months.

Then a friend told me the magic words: "structured programming". I went to the library and read a book (I forgot the title, I think it was by Wirth).

Within 3 days I had it up and running.

Re:Signs that you're a bad programmer by berntb on Friday August 07, 2009 @05:06AM (#747318)
>>I'm pretty sure that most people could learn how to program with some competence.

That is what logic tells you, but I've seen smarter people than me, which couldn't get it even after years of trying. (I helped a few with labs while studying.)

You shouldn't have too much grit.

You characterization about handling program size fits well with my own development. Interesting point.