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Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by Touche on Monday March 17, 2014 @03:12PM (#7417337)
Files are data. Data should be eternal. You should be able to convert a presentation you make today 30 years from now to a newer format. Making software not-backwards compatible is fine and normal but if files expire in a few years Apple is saying that the things you do on their computers are disposable.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by teej on Monday March 17, 2014 @03:37PM (#7417518)
The world isn't so black and white. Document serialization is a rocky landscape that is rife with compromise. You have to balance document open time, document save time, file size, backwards compatibility, forwards compatibility, recovery modes, interoperability, size in memory, parsing time, time to save to disk, proprietary embedded file formats, metadata support, and more. And those are just the development considerations. You also have to think about upgrade cycle, time-to-market, third party integrations, and what will help you win marketshare and sell copies.

Software is hard. I think it's pragmatic for software vendors to have a strong, transparent philosophy about the trade-offs so that consumers can make the right choice. As the grandparent points out, Microsoft values backwards compatibility. If you value that too, buy Microsoft.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by Touche on Monday March 17, 2014 @03:47PM (#7417587)
> Software is hard. I think it's pragmatic for software vendors to have a strong, transparent philosophy about the trade-offs so that consumers can make the right choice.

I'm not talking about software, I'm talking about information. Information shouldn't have an expiration date. Here's a webpage from 1994: http://www.lysator.liu.se/pinball/expo/ Surely you wouldn't prefer a world where the blog you wrote 4 years ago can't be viewed on a new computer?

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by Timmmmbob on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:20PM (#7417809)
Yeah but "information" generally requires software to view it. The only reason that web page still works in modern browsers is because they've gone to all the effort to account for quirks in ancient HTML. Apple clearly didn't think it was worth the effort in this case.

Also worth pointing out it's much easier to display old formats than it is to make them editable.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by upofadown on Monday March 17, 2014 @06:35PM (#7418573)
I don't think ancient HTML was complicated enough to have quirks.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by richardwhiuk on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @09:51AM (#7421860)
Really? Looking at the source of that page:

IMG tags with unquoted SRC attributes, and unquoted ALIGN attribute

BASE tag with default attribute - tag is: <base="http://www.lysator.liu.se/pinball/expo/"> but should be <base href="http://www.lysator.liu.se/pinball/expo/">

UL tags with no LI tags

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by pgeorgi on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:00PM (#7417676)
That was one of the main reasons IE6 survived for so long.

So yes, under some circumstances, old formats are deprecated - even on the web. The world is better for it, but it still sucks for those who need that old stuff and are unable to move it forward.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by mseebach on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:32PM (#7417897)
> Here's a webpage from 1994

It's a good thing that webpage didn't use the <blink> element.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by nemothekid on Monday March 17, 2014 @05:11PM (#7418116)
>Surely you wouldn't prefer a world where the blog you wrote 4 years ago can't be viewed on a new computer?

A counter argument to that, is I'm not sure if I want to live in a world where parsing an HTML document takes over 1,000,000 lines of unparallelizable C. You are sweeping a huge requirement that makes the rendering of that page possible in 2014. Ultimately it takes software to render that information, and the software that does render that, may have an expiration date.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by sliverstorm on Monday March 17, 2014 @10:06PM (#7419551)
Surely you wouldn't prefer...

How about if we're talking a blog I wrote 20 years ago, vs. some really nice improvement in modern software?

Backwards compatibility is great, and ideally no data would ever be lost to bitrot, but backwards compatibility always has a cost. I'm not unilaterally willing to pay that cost.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by michaelt on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:51PM (#7418012)
Assume you work on Keynote, so you have access to all the code and documentation for the 09 format. On average computers are now faster and have more RAM. You don't need to write the format, only read it. Your users will tolerate 15 minute format conversion times and the loss some things like formatting and videos.

Is it really so difficult to just not break a feature that was present in the last version of the software?

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by TillE on Monday March 17, 2014 @05:14PM (#7418144)
Yeah, assuming your software is reasonably modular and you haven't completely rewritten everything from scratch in the new version, retaining support for old file formats shouldn't be a very big deal.

At worst (like in the case of iWork 13 which probably is completely new code), you get one programmer to spend a few days writing a converter which reuses most of the old code.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by XorNot on Monday March 17, 2014 @05:49PM (#7418346)
More importantly, provided you don't do it too often, users will tolerate some loss of formarting fidelity from version to version.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by jperks on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:14PM (#7417777)
Yeah, Microsoft is all that not too super cool and buggy but it's right in persevering the path. Not being able to open and work with old documents is frustrating. In a way it's like forgeting grandparents and parents. Not a good thing to do. Apple PR should hear our voices and make a move. They'll lose too much if they don't.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by mturmon on Monday March 17, 2014 @04:08PM (#7417729)
"Data should be eternal."

This is not a useful statement. If you convert the "should" to a "shall", and try to design a system around that requirement alone, it would prove very hard. Even designing a clock around that requirement is very hard (http://longnow.org/clock/).

If you back off from the "shall", then you are in the standard world of engineering tradeoffs, which is where you started.

What features do you want to give up for "eternal"?

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by wpietri on Monday March 17, 2014 @10:09PM (#7419567)
Designing a clock around that is very hard because the clock is a physical machine that needs to physically last. Software is easier, because it's, well, soft.

I'm the developer who build their related Long Bets project (http://longbets.org/) and I think "data should be eternal" is a perfectly reasonable standard. That was certainly my goal in designing Long Bets.

If you start with that as a principle, I don't think it imposes particularly large engineering burdens, especially if you accept some potential degradation as a consequence.

For example here, instead of a "fuck you" dialog box, they could have imported the core of a presentation: text and images positioned on a sequence of frames.

An analogy is HTML. It's basically zero engineering effort to just suck the text out of a page. It is only modestly more effort to pull out some of the semantic markup, like headings, lists, and emphasis. And that's the part that really hurts to lose, not which precise shade of blue you used in your footer text.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by niels_olson on Monday March 17, 2014 @08:43PM (#7419189)
Perhaps the ideas should be eternal, but the byzantine markup system? This is a major reason why the older I get, the more I prefer plain text wherever I can get it and open standards when I can't. Fancy rendering is just a variation on the drug dealer's bargain "the first hit is always free".
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by 345723 on Monday March 17, 2014 @03:19PM (#7417386)
It is eternal, as long as you have the system and the software that it was created with.

This can be said for all sorts of things, from the Commodore 64 to Keynote. If you want to be able to access the data on an NES cartridge you are going to need special hardware and software. Yes the ROMS are available now online, but that's only because someone with the hardware and software made it available to others.

This is the nature of proprietary formats.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by pif on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @06:37AM (#7421143)
> This is the nature of proprietary formats.

Indeed. When you choose to save your work in a not-public format, you are decidîng not to care about its lifespan: complaining later is just useless, unfortunately.

Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by keithpeter on Monday March 17, 2014 @07:01PM (#7418707)
My approach: Export every presentation as PDF. I'm guessing LibreOffice will be around for a bit (files from 2003 and later working ok) and the PDFs provide a second line of access, but, I accept, they are not convenient for editing.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by chris_wot on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @09:50AM (#7428584)
Use ODF.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by keithpeter on Friday March 21, 2014 @04:47PM (#7444816)
I do. LibreOffice saves in that format by default.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by reeses on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @12:06AM (#7420079)
Assuming arguendo that data = information, a printout will suffice. Your conversion will be manual, but you should not expect a complicated, performant, object serialization format to last through several generations of computer architecture.
Re:“This presentation can’t be opened because it’s too old” by jmcqk6 on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @10:46AM (#7422207)