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Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @04:55PM (#7388334)
"I sincerely hope that modern nations will instead adopt scientific research as their guiding principle, and structure society around the continuous quest for knowledge."

So, in other words, Marxism.

Imagine a society in which the state doesn't feel the urge to "structure society" at all...

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by rayiner on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:04PM (#7388390)
The minute you take away the natural freedom of the big strong man to beat the nerd to death and take all his stuff, you're "structuring" society. After that, you're just arguing about what sort of structure you prefer.

As one of those nerds, I'm happy for the state to structure society in a way where my ability to do things with my brain matters than my ability to fight or lead people in fighting. But its foolish to believe that this structure is the natural order of things.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by hrkristian on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:17PM (#7388461)
>The minute you take away the natural freedom of the big strong man to beat the nerd to death and take all his stuff, you're "structuring" society. After that, you're just arguing about what sort of structure you prefer.

Wisest words I've read so far on HN.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by jchrisa on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:29PM (#7388525)
I also liked this from upthread: "wasteful economic practices which tend to be zero or negative sum when all externalities are accounted for."
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by Dewie on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:42PM (#7388591)
You must not find a lot of wisdom on here.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by shasta on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:33PM (#7388556)
Wow, you must be super wise to even know that.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by FD3SA on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:04PM (#7388389)
> Imagine a society in which the state doesn't feel the urge to "structure society" at all...

Sounds great! So, who is going to build the roads, schools, hospitals, water sanitation, power plants, transportation, and ensure their upkeep and performance without conflicts of interest? Who is going to decide whether you can hire private armies to enforce your will or not? Who is going to make sure that those with power are held accountable to those without?

Please share your thoughts.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by Lambdanaut on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:32PM (#7388549)
Everything you listed already exists in the private sector. (Private roads, schools, hospitals, power plants, buses, and water sanitation). They do quite well for themselves.

As for crime control(such as hiring a violent army, or shoplifting), companies could form unions that will turn down the business of "convicted" criminals. If you steal from a Walmart and you get caught by their union, then Walmart and every other retailer in that union isn't going to sell to you in the future. It's against the personal interests of a company to hire their own private army.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by Retric on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:38PM (#7388575)
Looks like you skipped over his argument ensure their upkeep and performance without conflicts of interest. Look at the history of coal mining, the US has already seen private companies running company towns and using their own private army to kill people. That's what unfettered capitalism leads to and most people don't want it.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:05PM (#7388706)
"the US has already seen private companies running company towns and using their own private army to kill people."

Sounds pretty tame to the actions of the US state, doesn't it?

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by mpyne on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @09:51PM (#7389659)
No, it doesn't, if you actually look at the history (though to be fair, the state was sometimes complicit back then as well).
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday March 13, 2014 @07:20AM (#7391100)
I'm looking at the history... Do not any US corporations doing anything near as bad as enslaving tens of thousands of Americans - then sending them off to die in muddy European trenches.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by Turing_Machine on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:19PM (#7388776)
Marxist states have killed a hundred million people and counting.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by patrickambron on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:00PM (#7388676)
I like imagining the other end of this. Walmart notices guy starting to gain some traction with a competitor. They use their private army to "convict" him and hold him prisoner. Which private army fights to get him free?
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @07:19PM (#7389087)
In order for Walmart to do business within a jurisdiction and/or with a certain party, it would have to agree a priori to certain requirements: to use certain courts or arbitrators, and for the rulings reached by said parties to be enforceable by certain armed groups.

Thus the private army which fights to free him would be agreed to beforehand.

And presumably Walmart would lose access to some of their markets as a result, and be fined, and/or and/or etc.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by mpyne on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @09:55PM (#7389670)
> In order for Walmart to do business within a jurisdiction and/or with a certain party, it would have to agree a priori to certain requirements

Agree with who exactly about those requirements?

The term "jurisdiction" itself implies some governing entity from which to exercise jurisdiction.

I'll assume you mean "the local commune", and when Wal-Mart ignores the rulings of the local commune and opens a shop anyways, what is the commune going to do about it?

Eject them by force you say from the local commune's militia? Wal-Mart will have a bigger army, because they can pay for it.

Eject them by force with a coalition of regional militias perhaps? That might work, but a regional coalition of actors with the right to use force isn't an anarchist commune, it's a government.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday March 13, 2014 @03:41AM (#7390495)
We can think of problematic occurrences in every social system.

For example:

If you've got this one 'government' controlling everything, what happens if it just up and decides to start enslaving tens of thousands of people and sending them to die in horrific trench warfare? Who's going to stop this 'government' from doing that?

What if this 'government' starts outlawing certain plants and/or alcohol, and punishing people harshly for using them? Who's going to stop the 'government' from doing that?

What if this 'government' enacts racially discriminatory laws?

What if...

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by mpyne on Friday March 14, 2014 @12:13PM (#7399792)
> We can think of problematic occurrences in every social system.

Don't turn the question around.

And don't forget that the one proposing to change the status quo is the one with the responsibility to prove that their proposed change is better, not simply "just as bad".

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by patrickambron on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @08:07PM (#7389300)
That sounds exactly like a government to me
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday March 13, 2014 @03:38AM (#7390482)
Can't recall a government ever asking my opinion which court I use.

Nor the ability to opt out entirely.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by yk on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:39PM (#7388581)
Marxism is a society where there is no state, so it will not structure society.

Lenin on the topic:

   It was solely against this kind of “abolition” of the state that
   Marx fought in refuting the anarchists! He did not at all oppose
   the view that the state would disappear when classes disappeared,
   or that it would be abolished when classes  were  abolished. What 
   he did oppose was the proposition that the workers should renounce
   the use of arms, organized violence, that is, the state, which is 
   to serve to "crush the resistance of the bourgeoisie". 
Source: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch...
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:09PM (#7388722)
Lenin's not exactly a reliable source where it comes to describing Marx (in much the same way that the ocean is not exactly free of water), since he was trying to sell a program radically divergent from Marx's under the banner of Marxism.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by yk on Friday March 14, 2014 @06:22AM (#7397831)
Actually I like to quote Lenin on this precisely because he is a vanguardist. So the argument is essentially, that even the driest ocean is still pretty wet.
Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by Turing_Machine on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:22PM (#7388794)
And yet somehow this utopia never arrives. Instead, it always turns to this:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by bowlofpetunias on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @06:39PM (#7388898)
What is this mysterious external force "the state" which you speak off?

We, humans, feel an almost primal need to structure everything around us, not just those of us who suffer from OCD.

Your imaginary libertarian/anarchistic society is about as realistic as pure Marxism. It denies human nature.

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday March 13, 2014 @03:58AM (#7390548)
Funny thing.

In a free nation, people would be able to organize a Marxist sub society, yes?

Re:You are a Marxist – but don't worry by maxerickson on Wednesday March 12, 2014 @05:07PM (#7388412)
This sounds like snark but I'm being honest, I imagine large groups of people working to structure societies.