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Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by MisterBastahrd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @05:55PM (#7315852)
What'd your great grandparents do for entertainment? Probably the radio, some TV, read some books, play cards. Speaking of TV, how'd they get it? Most likely over the air. Phone? Yeah, they had a land line, but they weren't dropping $100+ for a cell phone. Internet? Of course not. House? Probably about 1200 square feet or so, and they likely had more than 3 kids to occupy it. The rest of the world? A recovering war-torn mess that needed to rebuild itself before it could even start to compete with the US economically. What about the car? They probably had one or two, but you could fix them without needing specialized gear.

What about the food they ate? It was likely whole foods, which would lead to lower rates of heart disease and obesity. And if they lived in a rural area or subdivision, they likely grew some of their own or bought it from local farmers.

My grandparents never borrowed a dime from a bank. They owned a house, two vehicles, and raised 5 children. Their vacation was a week every summer at a rental cabin about 3 hours away. They didn't get cable until the mid 90s and never got the internet or a cell phone. How much money could you save if you never owed anyone interest and spent 20 dollars a month for communication?

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by kevingadd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:14PM (#7315968)
I think if you list cell phones and the internet before you list housing, your sense of scale is completely off.

Even if somebody's spending $200/mo on telephone and internet connectivity, that still pales in comparison to the cost of rent in pretty much any part of the country. A fairly small studio apartment in the area where I live is approaching $2000/mo, minimum - to pay less than that I'd probably have to move 30+ miles away, which then increases my commuting costs dramatically and might force me to drive instead of take public transit. (And no, I'm not living in some posh downtown area with high demand, I'm living next to the low-income workers and big families, in an apartment complex built in the 70s or 80s.)

Then let's look at health and dental costs, which combined together probably are double/triple what you pay combined for reasonable cell phone/internet service. (Personally, I pay $30/mo for cell phone voice and data. Internet is expensive because yay, monopolies - very little choice there.) Going without phone/internet connectivity in this modern society is utterly ridiculous as a working professional; you simply can't get away with it unless you decide you're gonna cut yourself off from the world and live in a cabin somewhere.

To answer your specific question, let's say he spends $200/mo on internet+cell phone. If he cuts those out entirely, that's $2400/yr, or barely a month's rent in many localities.

Don't be ridiculous. Stop focusing on tiny things when the real problems are right in front of you: Housing costs, health costs, transit costs...

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by eqdw on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:26PM (#7316043)
> A fairly small studio apartment in the area where I live is approaching $2000/mo, minimum

Unless you live in NY, SF (/me waves!), or DC, that number is grossly out of touch with the actual costs of rent in the United States.

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by kevingadd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:29PM (#7316068)
http://priceonomics.com/the-rise-of-bay-area-rent-prices/

This is from 2013. It hasn't gotten better. Their median for the city I live in is $2395 (and for reference, I'm an hour+ drive from San Francisco; ~2 hours by train).

Rents around me have definitely been going up, even if they're not at $2400. And that's for studios/1 bedrooms. If I were to move into the exact apartment I have now, the rent on the lease would be a few hundred dollars more than what I'm already paying (despite the fact that they've been bumping my rent up as much as they can).

Yes, there are low-rent areas. But a lot of people don't have the option to live in them.

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by eqdw on Friday February 28, 2014 @02:05PM (#7320768)
When I said "NY, SF, DC" I meant the metro areas, not the cities.

My friend is fond of telling me I could get a sweet 1000sqft loft in downtown Houston for $1200/mo or so. Or a regular apartment for half that.

Of course, to me, not living in Texas is worth the extra thousand dollars a month

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by mikeash on Friday February 28, 2014 @03:42PM (#7321346)
Even for DC that's deeply out of touch. I spent about two minutes on apartments.com and found a building in Arlington, nice neighborhood and right on two Metro lines, with studios for $1200/month. $2000/month can get you two bedrooms with a balcony and about 900 ft^2.

I get the feeling that people are confusing the rents in extremely desirable neighborhoods with the rents you must pay to be in the city at all.

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by MisterBastahrd on Friday February 28, 2014 @02:09AM (#7317558)
You can rent a 2 bedroom apartment in most cities for under 900 a month. Spending money for internet + cell + cable entertainment can approach half that. With the median income in the US being $51K, that's about 6-8% of pre-tax income going towards entertainment, not counting eating out, vacations, and movies.
Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by sliverstorm on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:35PM (#7316100)
Your local rental costs are whack, and not representative of most of the country.
Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by kevingadd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:36PM (#7316114)
They don't need to be representative of the entire US. We know where he lives, and I know what the layout of that area is like. If his job is in Seattle he doesn't have access to many low-rent housing options and the same is true for many other people in that area.
Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by sliverstorm on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:40PM (#7316146)
You said:

that still pales in comparison to the cost of rent in pretty much any part of the country.

Do you actually know what the cost of rent is in the rest of the country? Not long ago I paid $450/mo to split a 3br apartment with two friends in a moderate town 1 hour from a major city. Compared to that, $200/month on connectivity is indeed quite a lot.

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by kevingadd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:46PM (#7316193)
I will agree that sharing larger accommodations (3br, 4br, etc) is a great way to cut costs, and that housing is much cheaper in other parts of the country.

Will you still argue that housing + health care don't dwarf most other expenses? Cost of living is a sum of costs, not just the cost of rent or the cost of health care. That sum keeps going up.

Also, for many people sharing a big apartment/house is simply not an issue - having kids, having health issues, or a simple lack of available large housing. I've definitely shared places here in the past to cut costs, but that comes with all sorts of hidden costs built into it, and it's riskier.

Living 1 hour from a major city already imposes significant costs. I hope you're not an hour from the nearest hospital or fire station (I used to live that far from the nearest hospital, in an area with no fire coverage. Not the greatest...)

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by sliverstorm on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:56PM (#7316255)
Housing & health care are indeed the greatest costs, I'm just arguing that other costs are usually not so small in comparison that they can be waived in this discussion as negligible. If you rent a studio for $800 (as you could in this town), cutting your communication costs by $100-200 yield a moderate but real impact.

I don't mean I live in the middle of nowhere and commute to the city, I mean it's a satellite town of the variety you often find near large cities (To give you an idea). 150,000 people, and I live 200 yards from one of many fire stations.

Re:Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? by kevingadd on Thursday February 27, 2014 @07:08PM (#7316331)
I guess my PoV is that saving $2k+ a year is nice, but not significant if that's still only ~2 months rent. It's better - much better than it being 1 month's rent - but to me, you have to focus on the expenses that are the biggest and are most likely to grow. You can definitely save a lot of money by chipping away at the tinier stuff, but if that's not growing, I'm not sure it buys you much.

I suppose from another point of view, it's better to start with the small things you have control over, and make some tiny but measurable improvements, so you don't despair at how big everything is. That's fair.