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Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by kiba on Sunday January 26, 2014 @10:57PM (#7128702)
What is considered "sufficient" profit, anyway?
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by pekk on Sunday January 26, 2014 @11:58PM (#7128895)
Suppose that no amount is sufficient. That means every business is a failure to fill an infinitely large stomach.
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by rosser on Monday January 27, 2014 @01:01AM (#7129044)
It's as good a hypothesis as any I've heard to explain the observed behavior, and better than most.
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by 178 on Monday January 27, 2014 @01:31AM (#7129106)
"On the gravestone of capitalism it will say: 'Too much was not enough'." – Volker Pispers, German Comedian
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by moocowduckquack on Monday January 27, 2014 @02:06AM (#7129174)
Should you wish to bring down capitalism, your plan should have the feature of being immensely profitable in the short term. Then the transnational investment arm of a major banking conglomerate will steal your idea and go off and do it for you and you can put your feet up.
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by davidgerard on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:02AM (#7129319)
Some say ...
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 27, 2014 @04:25AM (#7129510)
By definition, the legal obligation of a business company is to maximize its profits, preferably while not getting caught breaking any laws.

That is not a hypothesis. That is the legally enforced and encoded definition of what capitalism must do.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by Xylakant on Monday January 27, 2014 @06:00AM (#7129725)
> By definition, the legal obligation of a business company is to maximize its profits, preferably while not getting caught breaking any laws. That is the legally enforced and encoded definition of what capitalism must do. [citation needed].

There is no law that I can think of that forces me, as a business owner to maximize my profits nor does any law prescribe the golden path for achieving said maximum. Generally speaking my business can incur losses as long as I find people willing to pay the money - either through loans, donations, whatever other means. I'm free to run my company as I wish as long as I get the majority of shareholders to agree.

There is one caveats that applies: If I run out of money, my company goes bankrupt. If I willfully or negligently damage the company by e.g. performing illegal acts and thus damage the property of other shareholders I might be liable. Paying decent wages certainly does not fall into this category.

Capitalism does not require companies to become bad actors. It certainly provides a lot of incentives to do so, but it's still the actors decision. Blaming any "legally enforced and encoded definition" is blame shifting.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by tomp on Monday January 27, 2014 @07:58AM (#7130059)
Generally speaking, most of the biggest and most profitable businesses don't have a single owner, but are instead traded on stock markets. People who own the shares are not people who run the company. The managers, people who run the company, have an obligation to maximize the profits (in US, and probably UK), otherwise the shareholders can sue them for loosing their money, even if they did the morally right thing. In Germany, however, profit maximization is not the only goal, but businesses can consider other stakeholders as well (employees, community, environment, ...)
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by Xylakant on Monday January 27, 2014 @09:58AM (#7130558)
> The managers, people who run the company, have an obligation to maximize the profits (in US, and probably UK), otherwise the shareholders can sue them for loosing their money, even if they did the morally right thing.

Nope. You certainly got it wrong. See the linked posts from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7129788. One of the potential source for that confusion might be that directors decisions can be challenged on the presumption that they are wasteful, but you'd have to prove that paying a decent wage is wasteful which is a very hard hurdle to overcome. Bad faith may be another option - but that's a different story.

Being traded on the stock market provides a lot of incentive to maximize profits since more profitable companies trade better - but it's not a legal requirement.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by garfelnagel on Monday January 27, 2014 @06:29PM (#7134147)
Those who ignore history etc etc. go back to the 70's and 80's and you will find investor lawsuits over boards being financially negligent with investor money. That is one of the reasons we find ourselves in this mess today.
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by mh- on Monday January 27, 2014 @06:23AM (#7129788)
this is a total myth that is somehow oft-parroted on the internet.

directors/officers of a corporation have a fiduciary duty to its stockholders. this is three-pronged: good faith, loyalty, due care.

there is no such 'maximize profits' mandate in common law. See business judgment rule and Directors' duties.

if these don't clarify things, please ask questions.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule

2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directors%27_duties

..

edit: another poster (netcan) gave a great explanation in a sibling thread- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7129582

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by wavefunction on Monday January 27, 2014 @07:43AM (#7130013)
>>legally enforced and encoded definition of what capitalism must do.

Well then certainly you can point us to the law that legally encodes a definition of capitalism and provides a regulatory regime that provides relief when someone practices "unorthodox capitalism."

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by mapt on Monday January 27, 2014 @09:06PM (#7134854)
There are two standards for a corporate executive to consider: 1) What the majority of the shareholders say 2) What a court would rule if a minority of the shareholders decided to sue the executive on the grounds that they (and presumably the majority stake) are depriving the minority shareholder of profits they have a legal fiduciary responsibility to provide.

What you are speaking about is #2. There is a high bar for such lawsuits, but there is a legal standard.

http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/20...

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by eru on Monday January 27, 2014 @05:44AM (#7129680)
The duty of the business is to the shareholders, yes. But the shareholders can vote on any goal they feel like (including making profit, of course).
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by rosser on Monday January 27, 2014 @01:45PM (#7132213)
Please, please, please: can we retire this meme already?
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by hueving on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:09AM (#7129340)
The people in control of the company have a legal duty not to waste shareholder money. Giving everyone a raise without a good reason would get them in hot water.

There would need to be a fact-based reason to give that raise out to the entire workforce. For example, workers would need to be leaving for better jobs, or the workers would have to go on strike.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by netcan on Monday January 27, 2014 @04:53AM (#7129582)
I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I think this comment is a case of "enough knowledge to be dangerous."

Companies certainly do have a duty to shareholders. That's absolutely true and breaches in duty should be taken seriously. A common issue where this responsibility needs to be better policed is lopsided risk decisions where in many cases executives can make large bonuses and on rare occasions they don't make a bonus while shareholders lose big - a complicated mess of scheming and tricky incentives that can in extreme cases amount to theft. This is the main type of abuse that these legal duties are meant to prevent. They do so imperfectly, but that's a different discussion.

"This company pays a fair wage and maintains a high standard of labour conditions. These are core values of this company and an important part of how we do business."

The above statement is completely legitimate position for a company to take and absolutely does not count as wasting shareholder money.* These are not new legal concepts. They have many years of legislation and litigation behind them.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by jacalata on Monday January 27, 2014 @05:38AM (#7129666)
I have frequently heard this statement, but just as frequently heard people say its a myth. Do you have any citations for it, such as a case where a board was sued for paying wages too high?
Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by vellum on Monday January 27, 2014 @05:50AM (#7129697)
A union sued Goldman Sachs, "alleging the firm's notorious pay structure is grossly unfair to its shareholders".

http://www.law360.com/articles/154407/ibew-fund-sues-goldman...

They didn't win.

http://courts.delaware.gov/opinions/download.aspx?ID=161650

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by netcan on Monday January 27, 2014 @08:01AM (#7130068)
Thanks for that. Great example.

Delaware Chancery Court on Monday, alleging the firm's practice of allocating nearly 50 percent of revenue to management's compensation constitutes corporate waste.

Note first that this complaint/case is about financial asset managers, who have more specific duties to deal with specific conflicts of interest. IE, the managers can manipulate the risk the company is taking in a way that benefits them personally. In very simple terms, the boss giving himself a very fat bonus. This isn't even close to the boss paying ground floor employees a better wage.

The Plaintiffs’ problems with the compensation plan structure can be summarized as follows: Goldman’s compensation plan is a positive feedback loop where employees reap the benefits but the stockholders bear the losses. Goldman’s plan incentivizes employees to leverage Goldman’s assets and engage in risky behavior in order to maximize yearly net revenue and their yearly bonuses. At the end of the year, the remaining revenue that is not paid as compensation, with the exception of small dividend payments to stockholders, is funneled back into the company.

This increases the quantity of assets Goldman employees have available to leverage and invest. Goldman employees then start the process over with a greater asset base, increase net revenue again, receive even larger paychecks the next year, and the cycle continues. At the same time, stockholders are only receiving a small percentage of net revenue as dividends; therefore, the majority of the stockholders’ assets are simply being cycled back into Goldman for the Goldman employees to use*

Even in this case, the shareholders were not able to prove that this was anything other than poor business decisions which are not something the court can make decisions about.

The facts pled in support of these allegations, however, if true, support only a conclusion that the directors made poor business decisions. Through the business judgment rule, Delaware law encourages corporate fiduciaries to attempt to increase stockholder wealth by engaging in those risks that, in their business judgment, are in the best interest of the corporation “without the debilitating fear that they will be held personally liable if the company experiences losses.”

Saying that companies can't raise wages because of fiduciary duty is bollocks. It's just an untruth, from a practical perspective.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by run4_too on Monday January 27, 2014 @12:32PM (#7131685)
Companies have a legal obligation to maximize shareholder profits, but that doesn't directly translate into how they treat their employees. If company directors felt that hiring the 'best' employees at a premium was actually making them more efficient and thus in the best interests of shareholders, they could do exactly that.

You are speaking about company directors deliberately devaluing their company on purpose to serve some other end. Often this would be connected to fraud, or semi-fraudulent, hence the the case law behind your idea.

Re:Why are US corporate profits so high? Because wages are s... by aestra on Monday January 27, 2014 @08:40AM (#7130211)
The goal of the business is to "grow," make more money than you did last year. That's a measure of "success."