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Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @07:00PM (#7127737)
The Danish GDP number you quote is based on the Danish Kroner to US Dollar exchange rate. This does not take into account the much higher cost of living in Denmark. This is why it is generally preferred to use Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) to compare incomes across countries. This tells a very different story:

  Per Capita GDP (PPP) 2012
    USA      51,704 USD 
    Denmark  37,324 USD
So after taking into account the much higher cost of living in Denmark the per capita GDP in the US is actually 38% higher!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...

Edit: Accidentally hit submit before I was ready to post...

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by _delirium on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:12PM (#7128076)
PPP seems like a weird attempt to decide what the exchange rate "should" be for things to be "equivalent". Why not let the market decide? DKK vis-a-vis USD is a floating exchange rate, where the market can decide how much they think is equivalent. Obviously a house in Copenhagen costs more than one in Nebraska, but that's because it's a better product, just like a good car costs more than a cheap car, and a fine restaurant with ocean view costs more than a taco truck. You can even apply it within countries: the cost of living is higher in Half Moon Bay than Detroit, but that's because living in Half Moon Bay is actually more desirable in real terms, not because dollars in Half Moon Bay are somehow devalued.
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:27PM (#7128125)
PPP was developed for exactly this purpose - to understand differences across areas with different currencies. While it is not perfect it attempts to take things like quality differences into account. Real estate if pretty difficult to compare as it is unique but for many other goods it is much easier.

For example you mention cars. The almost identical VW Golf (know as a Rabbit in the US) cost more than twice as much in Denmark as in the US.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resul...

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by _delirium on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:29PM (#7128135)
> The almost identical VW Golf (know as a Rabbit in the US) cost more than twice as much in Denmark as in the US.

Yes, but the VW Golf is relevant in the U.S., and irrelevant in Denmark. In the U.S. you have to drive, and in Denmark you don't (and most people don't). The modal share of bicycle commuting in Copenhagen is >50%, because the bike infrastructure is good. I sold my car when I moved from the SF Bay Area to Copenhagen, and now I spend less on transportation, with a better quality of commute (in my subjective estimation). Yet PPP would probably claim transportation costs more! Besides the nice bike infrastructure, I have an unlimited-rides metro pass for $50/mo, which includes very good 24/7 service. How much would it cost me to buy 24/7 transportation in the SF Bay Area, where I don't have to drive the vehicle myself? (Night buses that come once an hour don't count.)

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by judk on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:38PM (#7128159)
You are highlighting a fundamental brokenness of he concept of GDP, the fallacy that only market transactions contribute to quality of life.

I would rather work for 10 months in NY and live in Maui for 2months vacation than spend $15000 traveling to Maui five times for a week each, but GDP says the latter is a higher standard of living.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @10:21PM (#7128563)
There is not perfect way to measure output. If you can come up with something better please let everyone know. There are thousands of experts who have spent their entire professional lives on these issues. Good luck!
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by Retric on Monday January 27, 2014 @12:04AM (#7128910)
There are plenty of alternatives out there GDP is simply vary generic and became the most well known outside the field of economics. Depending on what your trying to measure other other tools are much more accurate.

Sort of like your doctor wanting to know your blood pressure for somethings and your weight for others. They can both tell say something about your risk of heart attack but blood pressure also indicates other more immediate issues and your weight is vital when prescribing medication.

EX: Subtracting exports and adding imports is useful when tracking quality of life adding exports and subtracting imports is useful when measuring economic strength. However, the difference between exports and imports tends to make up a small fraction of the economy so it's not that important.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by bradleyjg on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:30PM (#7128138)
It's difficult to arb those opportunities though, because while we have pretty decent freedom of capital and goods between the US and DK, we still have pretty piss poor free movement of labor -- both as a matter of formal barriers (i.e. immigration rules) and informal ones (e.g. different languages).
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by dalke on Sunday January 26, 2014 @07:48PM (#7127967)
It's hard to use those as a firm ranking system. For example, it looks like it doesn't include health care, child care, family leave, and other things which are covered by taxes/employer social fees in Denmark but are out-of-pocket in the US. About $3,000 of that difference is health insurance.

Better might be to ask Danes and Americans "are you happy with your life?"

On one happiness scale, Danes are the happiest people in the world. http://unsdsn.org/files/2013/09/WorldHappinessReport2013_onl... . The US is #17.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:10PM (#7128069)
I would argue that PPP is better than exchange rate based comparisons and I think most experts agree.[1]

GDP per capita includes everything produced by the country including health care, child care, etc. So that is not the issue here.[2]

In the US only about a quarter of GDP is spent by the government while in Denmark about half is spent by the government.[3] So in the US we pay directly for some services like healthcare that in Denmark are paid through the government with taxes.

[1] http://mruniversity.com/courses/development-economics/gdp-an...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenu...

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by dalke on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:44PM (#7128183)
Sorry, yes, I meant to agree that PPP is better than exchange rates.

PPP is difficult because there is no international common basket of goods. Danes get 52 weeks of paid parental leave, of which 18 are to be taken by the mother, 2 weeks by the father, and the others split at the parent think is appropriate, and their job position is waiting for them when they return.

What's the equivalent for the US?

Some of the leave pay comes from the company. Some from the state.

How does the 1 year of overall leave measured in the PPP? How much would it cost to get the same benefits in the US?

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @10:48PM (#7128663)
No need to apologize. I agree the PPP basket weights is a problem without a perfect solution but I has been studied extensively. My understanding is that most experts don't think it is a huge problem. I think most people would agree that Denmark is more expensive that the US but we can certainly argue about how much more expensive[1].

I'm not expert in the details of either GDP or PPP calculations but here is my understanding of how parental leave would be treated. It would show up in GDP because wages are included under the "income approach", one of the three main approaches used. I don't believe it would directly show up in PPP as it is not a good or service that people buy. I don't think is means anything to say parental leave is less or more expensive.

Anyway I don't think it would have a big impact as there only about 50,000 births every year in Denmark in a population of 5.5 million. So if they max out the benefit it is only 25,000/5,500,000 = 0.45%. This is a good example why GDP and PPP work in practice - all these random errors tend to cancel out.

If you are interested I suggest you read up on how GDP is calculated. The Wikipedia article if pretty good[2].

[1] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resul...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by dalke on Sunday January 26, 2014 @11:41PM (#7128852)
Good point regarding the number of births, but I don't think the ratio is quite correct. The denominator should likely exclude those too young to work. There's about 1 million under 15 years old (and another 800,000 65 or older, who likely aren't working).

How did 50,000 births turn to 25,000 in the numerator? There's 1 year of leave, so that's 50,000, no?

I get 50,000/4,500,000 => 1.1% . Still relatively small, yes.

I noticed a few things about the [1] you mentioned. It's mostly meant for 20-somethings. That is, it doesn't compare health care costs, daycare costs, etc. which older people and parents would be interested in.

Also, there's a deliberate social policy behind why the Volkswagen Golf price is so high Denmark. Quoting from http://www.copenhagenize.com/2012/10/danish-180-tax-on-cars-... :

> this series of taxes was put into place to try and discourage people from driving but also to try and win some money back for society for the destructive nature of automobiles. We know, for example, that for every kilometre ridden by bike, the Danish coffers recieve 23 cents. For every kilometre driven by car, the Danish state pays out 16 cents.

I've read through the GDP many times before. I still don't have a good grasp on it. It seems that having a poorly insulated house, for example, is better for the GDP because I need to work more in order to pay the higher heating bills. Or having more road damage because of automotive traffic is better because it means more government funding to rebuild the road system. Or it's better to use MS Windows than OpenBSD because the latter doesn't cost anything and so doesn't appear as part of the GDP.

These are listed as 'externalities', but it's these externalities which contribute to happiness, enjoyment of life, etc. So while GDP per capita is used as an approximate measure for the ability to carry these out, it doesn't mean that it's actually being done.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by yummyfajitas on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:49AM (#7129427)
What's the equivalent for the US?

You consume more goods and services. If you want to spend time out of the workforce you can reduce your consumption of goods and services. Most people in the US don't do this because they value consumption more than leisure.

If anything, this cuts against quality of life in Denmark. If a significant number of Danes prefer consumption to leisure then they are harmed by parental leave. They are forced to trade consumption for leisure even though they don't want to. In much the same way, if you forced me to trade my Thinkpad for an equally priced Macbook, I'd be worse off in a manner that is not reflected in GDP.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by judk on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:40PM (#7128167)
How does PPP work when healthcare is socialized in Denmark and I don't need to maintain a car, but I do need to lay for heat, etc?
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @10:54PM (#7128690)
Since you are so interested why don't you do a little research yourself. This has been extensively studied but I think you need to start with the basics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by yummyfajitas on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:41AM (#7129407)
GDP includes government spending, so all the things you mentioned are included. You'd have a point if he provided statistics for post-tax wages (excluding benefits) or something like that.
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by judk on Sunday January 26, 2014 @08:39PM (#7128162)
That survey doesn't factor in cultural brainwashing :-)

You need to survey folks who have lived in both places.

Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by Retric on Sunday January 26, 2014 @07:06PM (#7127780)
Your numbers are even more in favor of Denmark. (Denmarks 51,704 USD vs USA 37,324 USD) so what's your point?
Re:Why is the American dream dead in the south? by spikels on Sunday January 26, 2014 @07:10PM (#7127802)
Sorry to mislead you. Accidentally hit submit and had the USA and Denmark swapped. Numbers are correct now.

Delete your post if you like...