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Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by maxerickson on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @10:46PM (#7100559)
Can you explain how a large amount of bitcoin end up getting sold into Argentina?

I don't see why anybody (in country) with dollars would bother selling them for bitcoin, and I don't see why anybody with bitcoin is going to be excited about pesos.

So you get a little trickle.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by GigabyteCoin on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:01AM (#7100836)
It's nearly impossible if you think about it in depth.

Argentina does not allow money (in significant amounts) to leave their borders.

Bitcoin is a world-currency.

In order for an argentinian to acquire a Bitcoin, he must pay taxes in excess of 50%, be limited to a few hundred USD in purchases per month, and find somebody who owns bitcoin to take argentine pesos which are in an inflationary spiral at the moment: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS&view=10Y

The value of Bitcoin is doing the exact opposite of argentine pesos.

Anybody holding Bitcoin would have to be insane to exchange them for argentine pesos.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by politician on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:39AM (#7100963)
Well, it would be possible if the Argentinians adopted a "South American" Bitcoin variant with their own Genesis block: restarting the BTC valuation process based on their local economy would capture the actual local value.

You'd be in a competition at some point with the larger "Western" Bitcoin variant, but that's not an issue in the short term.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by GigabyteCoin on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:42AM (#7100973)
If a "South American Bitcoin variant" was created, purely for south americans, why would anyone holding a world currency (Bitcoin) trade it for currency only recognized in south america?
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by politician on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @04:42PM (#7105564)
Maybe I shouldn't have said BTC and that's confusing. Let's say "tamper-proof pips" wink wink.

The global BTC currency is irrelevant to this use-case which is to provide a local people group with a currency option that cannot be manipulated by the same people that screwed up their original currency option but which is calibrated to the economic output of the local people group (e.g. it's not too expensive relative to the per-capita GDP of local Argentinians).

It doesn't matter that BTC exists globally, or at all. The reason I even mentioned or suggested BTC was because (a) it exists, (b) it has certain properties that make it good at avoiding manipulation, (c) that it can be repurposed.

If you replaced Bitcoin's genesis block with a new one, and got a bunch of people to agree that this was for valuation wrt a particular economy (e.g. because Argentinian BTC miners mine on the chain beginning with this block, and few people in the global community do because there isn't an incentive for them to), then what would happen is that the value of that entirely different and distinct economy ought to come to represent the value gained by that group of miners. Who, hopefully, are in Argentina and who trade with other Argentinians. Does that make sense?

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by ihsw on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @01:09AM (#7101066)
Because they wish to do business in South America, or with South American companies.

Economic unity is very attractive, especially considering the financial/legal hurdles that come with reaching customers in a dozen different currencies in a dozen different national jurisdictions.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by GigabyteCoin on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @01:14AM (#7101095)
Ok we're really going on a tangent now...

So the proposed solution is to:

a) create a crypto currency for south americans only

b) ask other countries who want to buy your resources to pay in south american coin

c) convert south america coin to bitcoin (how?) once you have transacted with the rest of the world to re-enter the world-currency market

Good luck with that idea. It's never going to work.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by jpatokal on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @05:56AM (#7101915)
That's only true if they want to convert pesos into Bitcoins. However, if they can sell their services directly outside Argentina (say, a web developer for hire), they can get paid directly in Bitcoin.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by GigabyteCoin on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @01:06PM (#7104280)
Good luck supporting a "bitcoin economy" when the only income sources are argentinians selling their services over the net.

Even if Google was based in argentina, and accepted 100% of it's payments in Bitcoin, it would only account for about 10% of Argentina's current GDP.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by gojomo on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:14PM (#7100658)
Whatever people are doing to get the pesos, they can do directly for bitcoin instead.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by maxerickson on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:35PM (#7100742)
I was careful to ask how the bitcoin are going to get into the in-country economy.

If no one has any bitcoin then no one can work for bitcoin.

Of course, Argentinians could attempt to bootstrap their own cryptocurrency..

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by wslh on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:44AM (#7100982)
Of course, Argentinians could attempt to bootstrap their own cryptocurrency..

It's ironic that one of the cryptocurrency experts is Argentinian: http://bitslog.wordpress.com

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by marshray on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:30AM (#7100932)
Perhaps we ought turn the question around:

Under such circumstances, how is anyone going to keep bitcoin out of Argentina?

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by maxerickson on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @02:52PM (#7104937)
I don't think anyone is going to keep bitcoin out of Argentina.

I just don't see how enough of them can get in for it to matter all that much.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by zfran on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:22PM (#7100696)
who's gonna pay in bitcoin when they can do it in shitty soon-to-devaluate pesos?
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by gojomo on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:44PM (#7100772)
Who's going to take pesos when someone else is offering bitcoin?
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by wslh on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:50PM (#7100794)
You have dollars and Argentinians love dollars. You can buy and sell dolars in the [not so] black market.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by fancyketchup on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:47AM (#7100992)
Who's going to offer bitcoin? Nobody living in Argentina has any to offer. American and European tourists? Why wouldn't they keep their (appreciating) bitcoins at home and just offer to pay in Dollars or Euros?
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by politician on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @04:49PM (#7105599)
They can bootstrap a Bitcoin-variant on a new block chain, and have plenty and plenty which are calibrated to the local economy rather than the Western economy.

Remember, money doesn't have intrinsic value. There's no reason a bunch of pissed off middle class educated people can't en masse adopt a new way of trading resources.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by rahimnathwani on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @02:20AM (#7101290)
There's a market exchange rate (different from the official exchange rate), and if you could buy the pesos for less than that market rate, you could make money.

If you (a bitcoin seller) were to acquire pesos and hold them, it wouldn't work too well, as your money would get inflated away, eliminating and reversing any profit. However, you could instead (i) use them for transactions, or (ii) sell them to somebody else who has, say, dollars, but needs to buy assets in Argentina.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by zby on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @03:40AM (#7101519)
Maybe from turists? I don't know about Argentina - but in cases like this turists are often forced to buy the local currency by using the official exchange rate.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by martinrame on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @05:26AM (#7101832)
That's not true. I've seen many tourists buying pesos in the black market (arbolitos).
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by estebank on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @06:35AM (#7102006)
Martin, you have to understand that many people from other countries do not use cash most of the time and are used to be able to get a fair exchange when using their Credit/Debit cards in other countries.

These people, not having found out the state of Argentina (keep in mind that find out about all these in english is even harder than in spanish) will not arrive with much cash to exchange. And this is not a hypothetical, I've seen this a couple of times already.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by narrator on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @11:57PM (#7100826)
They make good wines in Argentina. Someone could start selling those for bitcoins. There's also a fair amount of tourism.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by wslh on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @12:40AM (#7100965)
Argentina economic potential is high and there are many companies that provide state of the art products and services.

The problem is the economic environment making impossible to survive for a standard business. The tax pressure is incredible high and there are not incentives for doing fair businesses.

Imagine this simple case: a company exports for ~7 pesos per dollar while imports its components for ~11. And we are not talking yet about the paperwork and bribery involved in commercial transactions.

Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by gaius on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @02:39AM (#7101332)
100 years ago there was a common saying, as rich as an Argentine, like we might say as rich as an oligarch today. Argentina's problems are entirely down to mismanagement and corruption.
Re:Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop by forgottenpaswrd on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @05:14AM (#7101796)
"100 years ago there was a common saying, as rich as an Argentine, like we might say as rich as an oligarch today."

You can say the same today. The problem with Argentina is that while it got a GDP equal to Canada in last century, the money was never good distributed, like in Canada, Germany or France.

So just a couple of people will own more than half Texas(Argentina is big) while the rest of the population could only live as servants.

Today big latifundistas still own most of Argentina, and they buy the gobertment like in the past.