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Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by blasdel on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @01:55AM (#703191)
Uh, Zed?

You know the GPL doesn't have (and expressly forbids adding) any sort of advertising clause, right? And you know how all those fly-by-night VC-casino startups prattle on about 'cloud' and don't generally distribute software that you execute on your own computer? (and when they do it sure as fuck isn't Ruby or Python)

Yeah.

I don't really see anybody needing to 'convey' software that uses lamson. Not only is nobody going to want to buy a license from you, are you really going to get copyright assignment from all contributors before relicensing their work?

On one end of the spectrum, the Linux kernel, the GPL works perfectly! There is a nice crystal clear boundary between kernelspace and userspace already, and the gray border region of closed commercial drivers works itself out due to the companies' desire to maintain one codebase (it's not a derived work if the same blob is used in Windows!).

On the opposite end (in order of increasing ridiculousness) there's libraries for doing basic shit in Python or Ruby, frameworks for sugaring Javascript or CSS, and motherfucking Wordpress themes. Here is where the GPL falls to pieces. Attempt no landing there.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by jcl on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @12:54PM (#704053)
There is at least one guy (quoted in the article) who wants Lamson under a different license so he can "use it at work". Zed further implies that many VC-backed companies are skittish about GPL software -- even if their services are entirely "in the cloud" -- most likely because it limits their options.

For example, lots of in-the-cloud companies offer locally hosted versions of their services. Does that count as "conveying"? If the company goes belly-up and it needs to sell off its software assets, does that count as "conveying"? How about if the company and its software is bought outright?

I'm guessing these are not questions VCs want hanging over their business deals, and that they are willing to pay money so that they don't need to consider them.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by blasdel on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @02:17PM (#704264)
Selling locally hosted versions is absolutely 'conveying' and the GPL's text is quite clear.

Selling the rights to the software or the company itself is straightforward -- just because it's licensed under the GPL doesn't mean the company doesn't own the copyright! The GPL text is intentionally unclear about this, as the FSF pretends that everyone is going to assign copyright to them for 'safekeeping'.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by jcl on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @06:18PM (#704734)
Granted, selling the software outright would be conveying, but what if the company leases their service on a remotely administered box colocated in a local data center? I think it is not totally clear that software has been conveyed, especially if it is under GPL2.

Regarding selling rights: you perhaps misinterpreted the scenario I am proposing. I am supposing that a company has written a proprietary "cloud" internet application that incorporates Zed's GPLed Lamson component -- which you say they can do because no software is conveyed. However, if they want to sell their software or (potentially) their company, I am saying that -- cloud or not -- they will be interested in acquiring a non-GPL license from Zed because the sale of their non-GPL software without such a license may run afoul of the GPL... which is why Zed's use of the GPL is relevant even in a "cloud" context.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by kragen on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @03:10AM (#703246)
Do you know what the "(A/" in the title stands for?
Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by blasdel on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @03:41AM (#703276)
The 'Affero GPL' -- which is intended to close the software-as-a-service 'hole' -- as thus it is used by noone, and promoted only by the nuttiest faction of the FSF.

As barely realistic as complying with / enforcing the GPL's terms are (especially in v3), it's nothing compared to the fantasy-land that is the AGPL. The GPL at least has copyright law to piggyback off of / fall back to -- The AGPL is just a shitty EULA!

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by kragen on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @05:52PM (#704687)
It's true that GPLv3, the original AGPL, and AGPLv3 are not as well tested in court as GPLv2. However, they do not depend on "clickwrap" contracts, as your profane comment appears to imply; they are written solely as unilateral copyright licenses, not contracts ("agreements", which is what the "A" in "EULA" stands for). It's possible that a court might invalidate them, but they are grounded in the exclusive rights reserved to authors under regular copyright law.

The AGPL is not as popular as the standard GPL, partly because it's somewhat new. Laconica is probably the most popular piece of software that uses it.

I don't think the FSF really has factions. People who disagree with Richard tend to just leave.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by kragen on Wednesday July 15, 2009 @12:22AM (#705120)
I don't really see anybody needing to 'convey' software that uses lamson.

The AGPL solves that problem.

Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by Harkins on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @12:08PM (#703967)
Lamson is, however, GPL rather than AGPL. I checked after reading the post. Seems odd given the content of the post.
Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by cookiecaper on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @03:45AM (#703279)
I don't. Is it abhor?
Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by Kaizyn on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @02:16AM (#703203)
Email and messaging services are just as essential today to the network infrastructure as are operating systems to desktop computing environments. There also exists a nice boundary between the service providers and users.
Re:Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL by blasdel on Tuesday July 14, 2009 @02:34AM (#703220)
But the network infrastructure is all 'cloud' and shit, increasingly wrapped up with the software being provided as a service, and that boundary between service providers and users makes the GPL pretty useless. The service providers never redistribute the software!

I only see two groups of people trying to make money distributing the software itself: spammers, and sellers of shit to pile on top of Exchange.