The silicon valley probably ain't a bad place to be but:

- there is this thing called the Interweb that helps communicate efficiently from all over the world (I find amusing the idea that you have to be in a certain place in one country to work on Internet stuff; doesn't sound like "eating your own dogfood" if you ask me);

- instead of all european entrepreneurs moving to the US, why not organize in Europe? Most people want to move to the US because it's easier, with less bureaucracy... yet they have to face complicated immigration issues.

Just because pg is a brilliant entrepreneur who identified a few specific rules to help replicate what he did ten years ago doesn't mean it's the only way. Far from it. Think different.

On the internet, nobody can see you fail. Peer pressure, weekly dinners, demo day - you can't really replicate that on the web.

As for organising in Europe, where? London is very expensive, and nothing else springs to mind.

Cambridge has a lot of tech companies on it's science park these days.

http://www.cambridgesciencepark.co.uk/companies.php

I understand that Copenhagen and Amsterdam are thriving tech centers. They are also full of English speakers and beautiful women.

A "thriving tech center" is overstating it a bit for Amsterdam, but we certainly have our share of small web start-ups, and there are plenty of programmers available. The atmosphere is great, the climate is no distraction, (but the nightlife is).

Language is not a barrier, but I don't think you should incorporate here - we have high capital requirements. NTIAALOA (not that I am a lawyer or anything).

Current minimal capital requirement is 18000 euro for a Dutch limited company, but a new bill will remove this requirement.

Is it really so hard to incorporate in the US but operate from overseas? I don't think it is.

Probably not, but I don't think you get any of the benefits of the corporation unless you also register a local branch of it, and then you're back to square one. Meaning you can't really be employed by your own company...stuff like that.

I highly doubt that.

Yeah? What's your information? Mine is spotty, but comes from a friend in Italy who is a registered accountant there, who told me in no uncertain terms that having DedaSys LLC in Oregon is all fine and dandy, but in terms of Italy, it basically doesn't exist. If at some point I would want to be employed by it, it would require creating a local subsidiary that then has all the same bureaucratic requirements that any other company would have. If you think about how governments operate, it does make sense. Even if you do business a lot in another US state, you're supposed to register to do business there - let alone another country.

The potential "loophole" is registering a company in an EU country that's not so lame as the continental ones (i.e. Ireland or the UK), but I don't have good information on that.

I doubt those beautiful women would enhance your prospects.

In fact, the ugliness of girls in the major startup hubs is probably a feature.

Copenhagen is awesome, but realty is expensive. Though Malmo, Sweden is quite close and it is cheaper.

I live in Copenhagen, and often have Canadian and US exchange students subletting rooms at my apartment. They all complain about the living costs here. The web / startup scene is not impressive. The VC's are really conservative, and don't seem to get the early funding scheme. They'd much rather give millions at a later stage. But hey, the women are beautiful :-)

Are Malmo living costs significantly lower?

Within europe the UK and Ireland are best in terms of social security and tax law. Beware of countries with minimum social security contributions of which there are many. On another thread someone suggested destinations close enough to London to commute.

Spain? Never been there though :)

Spain is hugely bureaucratic and their social security system is insane for startup founders.

> "Spain is hugely bureaucratic and their social security system is insane for startup founders."

Do you have experience with this?

any need to interfere with their social security and bureaucracy being incorporated elsewhere?

If you want to stay on the legal side you must tell them. Unless you have no income from your business I guess.

edit: I'm assuming you're talking about more than just 3 months on a beach ;-)

SV is very expensive. I think London is a perfectly good place.

John.

Isn't London expensive too?

> have to be

PG never said "have to", he said you'll have better luck, everything else being equal.

> complicated immigration issues.

This is very true. It was even before 9/11 - search for Torvalds in this page:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9800E0DC1039F...

> organize in Europe?

That's where the problems start - where in Europe? England and Ireland are probably the most company friendly countries.

Do it in Finland. Tons of highly skilled workforce, lots of other startups, etc. I don't think the bureaucracy bit is too much of a challenge, especially when compared to US immigrations.

I'm actually a US citizen, but I'm sick of silicon valley and don't really fancy going back, unless it's for my wife (she's in biotech, and they're way more cluster-dependent than we are in computers).

Part of the reason I don't want to go back there is quality of life issues. While I'm sure Finland is a nice place for many things, it looks too cold and flat for my tastes. Also, the language is supposedly not very easy, and even though most people probably speak english well, it's always a plus to be able to integrate as much as possible.

Anyway, that's just my personal take on it, which comes down to my tastes, not anything objectively wrong.

And don't forget the dancing and the singing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1-VsiznAU

What is the cost of living there? How about social security contributions and health insurance while you're not making any (or just a little) money?

I am basically okay to unite with other European enterpreneurs here in Europe, that's a good idea, too (if I will have no possibility to move to SV)

I still believe in face-to-face communications, they bring so much value!

Why don't we organize it in South America?, it's cheaper than US or Europe.

Where are you now? We are coming from Argentina so we have immigration challenges too.

Does anybody know if it's legal for us to work on our startup in the US without having a work visa (if we aren't taking a salary) _after_ we incorporate in the US?

I have a US work visa, when I first came here I came with an E visa (Executive or something), because I worked for a finnish start-up that was launching their US operations here. I later heard that it's a good visa class (not sure why) and quite difficult to get.

I'm from Finland btw, your home country does affect your chances with some of the visa types.

I am currently in Ukraine.

IANAL, but I suppose it is ok to have a kind of usual visa for three month or so and commit to your own US company wherever you are (while you have no salary).

I am a co-founder of US company already.