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Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by gavanwoolery on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:18AM (#7006172)
My mom became a doctor in the late 60s, when there was still a good deal of real sexism towards women (she was the only woman doctor at the college) - she had her lab work sabotaged among other things. (Before becoming a doctor, she started majoring in computer science, of all things.)

So why did women start becoming doctors? Is it because we went out of our way to create special programs, incentives, interest, and reverse discrimination for them?

No.

Women became doctors because they wanted to, and now sexism is at a point where it is kind of pathetic to not become a doctor because you are afraid of any sexist reactions you might encounter. I'd say the same applies for computer science. Women will come into the discipline over time (especially since now there are more software engineers than there are farmers in the US), no need artificially manipulate the evolution of the job market.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by rayiner on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:30AM (#7006250)
That's actually not true. The medical profession went to great lengths to create special programs for women. Medical schools went to great lengths to equalize the number of men and women in their incoming classes. Medical schools were in fact some of the pioneers in affirmative action (the seminal Supreme Court Decision Regents of University of California v. Bakke involved a medical school).
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by gavanwoolery on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:47AM (#7006386)
True, but you'd have to personally interview each women to determine their motivations for entering medicine (causation can be attributed to many things, including the general decline of sexism). Personally, my mom, even though she had a somewhat tough time, is very anti-reverse discrimination (which probably rubbed off on me). She views reverse discrimination as treating women like they are too weak to succeed on their own. Equality is treating people as equals.
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by rayiner on Friday January 03, 2014 @12:08PM (#7006545)
Let me explain by analogy:

Say you've got a ship. If you perturb the ship by tilting it slightly starboard or port, and then remove the perturbation, it will return to sitting upright. Most ships are designed to have a stable equilibrium along the axis of the keel. Simply removing any perturbation will return the ship to the upright equilibrium.

Now, say you perturb the ship by applying a deflection to the rudder, tending to turn the ship to a new heading. When you remove the perturbation, the ship will straighten itself out, and stop turning, but will not return to its original heading. While most ships are designed to self-equillibriate to traveling straight, each possible heading is itself a stable equilibrium.

The "equality is treating people as equals" viewpoint assumes that the world behaves like the first case. You remove the discriminatory force, and you can assume that society will return itself to an upright equilibrium. But that's just an assumption. The world could very well behave like the second case. Even if you remove the discriminatory force, you can still be headed in the wrong direction!

The experience of at least two professions suggests that the world behaves more like the second case. In the 1950's and 1960's, there was extreme discrimination against women in medicine and law. In the 1970's through 1990's, both medical schools and law schools took affirmative measures to increase enrollment of women. And it was a smashing success: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/assets_c....

The key takeaway, though, is that the affirmative action moved the society to a new stable equilibrium. Today, there is no real advantage to being a woman when applying to medical school or law school. But the enrollment is stable because the new situation is self-perpetuating.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by harryh on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:54AM (#7006440)
So basically rayiner pointed out that you had a fairly huge factual misunderstanding of the world. You're going to acknowledge that mistake but continue to cling to your viewpoint about the value of affirmative action anyways based solely on the feelings of your mother?

That's interesting.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by gavanwoolery on Friday January 03, 2014 @12:00PM (#7006489)
To clarify, I am saying "true" to the fact that colleges have plenty of reverse discrimination programs. I stand by my statement that these programs were not necessarily responsible for getting women into medicine. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can go ask any women why she got into medicine, and her response probably won't be "well, the colleges were giving awesome scholarships to women at the time." It will more likely be "I wanted to get into a field where I could help people" or some such thing. In fact, you will rarely find people who chose their profession based on how much sexism was present. Rather (odd as it is!) people tend to choose the profession they are interested in pursuing, or one that has a good salary.
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by ps4fanboy on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:12PM (#7012140)
My wife is a doctor and 65% of all medical students in her year were female. Soon another high paid status job will be dominated by women, because to suggest these programs promote a gender bias in the opposite is met with vitriol and hate from feminist groups and campaigners.
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by tptacek on Saturday January 04, 2014 @07:54PM (#7013847)
The United States graduates more males from medical school than females. This is something you can go look up; it will be the first hit for your query on Google. But don't let that get in the way of your rant about "feminists". Mens Rights Now!
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by ps4fanboy on Saturday January 04, 2014 @08:32PM (#7013991)
Sorry I dont live in the United States, are you seriously suggesting that because I think its bad that more women are graduating in medicine (in my country) than men because of advocacy programs that somehow I am anti female and a "MRM". How is this a rant? You are very toxic.
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by MartinCron on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:29AM (#7006243)
no need artificially manipulate the evolution of the job market

Interesting point, though I consider things like "stop being sexist assholes" not to be an artificial manipulation of the evolution market but just basic civilized behavior which benefits men and women alike.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by gavanwoolery on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:43AM (#7006352)
I agree - there is no reason to be sexist. But the author's message is not just about sexism, it is about reverse discrimination.

It's one thing to fight against inequality. Its another to demand that the scales be tipped in your favor.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by berrypicker on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:45AM (#7006368)
Is opposing affirmative action programs, which have historically proven to be largely failures, being a "sexist asshole"? I'm looking at this from a purely economical perspective because I really do not care about what people do, and I do not see a good reason to try to manipulate the employment market instead of society's view on employment.
Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by MartinCron on Friday January 03, 2014 @11:50AM (#7006411)
I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't consider having different opinions on affirmative action programs being a "sexist asshole".

If you really need examples of actions that do qualify as sexist assholery, let me know and I'll dig some up. They aren't exactly hard to find.

Re:Stop telling women they just need to know how to code by einhverfr on Friday January 03, 2014 @10:42PM (#7009876)
Indeed. My grandmother (https://aas.org/obituaries/georgeanne-caughlan-1916-1994) became an astrophysics professor in 1964....