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Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by maxk42 on Wednesday January 01, 2014 @11:39PM (#6998226)
About a year ago I left a cable modem and internet service (Time Warner) at an apartment I was moving out of while my friend continued to stay there. I had configured the thing in a manner I thought to be fairly secure -- strong password, no broadcast, etc.. One day the internet goes down and my friend doesn't know what to do. She calls the ISP and asks them what's wrong. They say they can't release any information about the service to her without my permission, so I suddenly get a three-way call explaining that my friend and the ISP representative are on the line and I need to give my authorization to access the account information. Being the person I am, I attempt to troubleshoot things over the phone before giving out any sort of account credentials. Eventually, I ask her to log into the router configuration page. She doesn't know the password and the first one I gave her doesn't work. The representative chimes in "That's fine -- I can just change it from here."

"...What?"

I was furious. Time Warner had left a backdoor in all their modems that gives them administrative access to my private connection. And yes -- she did alter the password remotely. She didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with this. I tried googling for relevant information, but wasn't able to find anything more than speculation at the time.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by superuser2 on Thursday January 02, 2014 @02:51AM (#6998650)
>Time Warner had left a backdoor in all their modems that gives them administrative access to my private connection

Yes, their modems. On the connection that they provide for you.

A cable modem is considered CPE (customer premise equipment), meaning it is part of the infrastructure a telco uses to provide you with connectivity. Usually they own it, but in any case they have full control over it, as they should - it's part of their network. They may choose to delegate some configuration via a web GUI, but that's at their discretion -it's theirs to administer.

Business telecom has a formalized notion of a demarc (demarcation point), the place where the telco network ends and yours begins. AT&T owns and is responsible for the fiber/T1/POTS lines as they come through the wall, as well as the CPE (often a large rackmount Cisco router) to which it connects. Their contract is to provide connectivity on specific ethernet ports/fibre GBICs/whatever of that CPE. Whatever happens downstream of those ports is your problem, and whatever happens upstream is their problem.

Both sides will treat this connection as hostile - you'll have your own NATing router up and the telco's router, if it even has a configuration interface listening on your NIC, won't let you in. It would be inappropriate for AT&T to have any sort of access to the router you own and inappropriate for you to attempt any sort of access to AT&T's CPE.

Time Warner has been shifting recently towards placing WiFi on their side of the (logical) demarc. Which makes sense, since most people would rather not be responsible for administering any infrastructure - they just want Time Warner to deliver them WiFi. It sounds like you have this kind of setup, in which case Time Warner's access is not "backdoor" but "building owner" - you're renting a room.

If you'd prefer, you can (have them) turn off their WiFi, go buy a nice wireless router, and connect it to the modem. In this case Time Warner is providing you with a connection on an ethernet port; the device you've plugged in is your own (your side of the demarc) and they have no right to touch its configuration, nor are they responsible for it working correctly.

EDIT: The obvious analogy that would have simplified much of this is that a cable modem is like an electrical meter.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by keithnoizu on Thursday January 02, 2014 @03:14AM (#6998702)
Yeah, this is why I just shell out for my own docsys 3 cable modem whenever possible.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by superuser2 on Thursday January 02, 2014 @03:41AM (#6998762)
Even when you "bring your own modem" ISPs tend to demand exclusive control while it's in service. It really is intended to be part of the ISP's network rather than yours, so while (unlike a rental unit) you could walk away with it and take it to another provider, sell it, run your own copper infrastructure, etc. you usually still can't modify the settings of existing connection.

One of my cable installers told me that rate limiting is done in the cable modem, so people would run pirate firmware that eliminated the artifical limits and run at the natural limit of the connection. People had fun with this for a while until the network engineers figured it out, and now people exceeding the speed limit get their connections shut down pretty quickly. But anyway, it makes sense the the cable modem really isn't the customer's to control.

I own and control my own wireless router because I want to play with things like DD-WRT, use OpenDNS, etc., but I see the cable modem as no different from the utility box down the street.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by ryanhuff on Thursday January 02, 2014 @04:42AM (#6998885)
Time Warner wants nothing to do with my (own purchased) cable modem beyond allowing me to use it. The vendor will only provide firmware patches to cable operators, and Time Warner won't touch my modem to help get the firmware upgraded.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by midas007 on Thursday January 02, 2014 @06:13AM (#6999089)
I've always had naked DSL because of not wanting to pay for cable TV or another line. For DSL and similar services, BYOE tends to be hand-off.

With cable modems, does/can the provider push firmware?

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by alexwright on Thursday January 02, 2014 @11:54AM (#7000539)
All the cable modems I've used (UK) have always downloaded a an image over TFTP on boot. As I understand it they can come up with a very minimal loader and reach out for their config to the local "node" for configuration, and this can include new firmware. On the support line they're adamant that you reboot the things before proceeding past the IVR. Which makes sense.

The last I heard about it the different levels of service (bronze/silver/gold they were at the time, 5/10/20Mbit/s) are just based on the MAC the modem sends on this initial config/handshake. When I moved from 20 to 50 I was told to reboot the modem and it came up will an all new shiny more craptastic than ever web interface as well as setting it's WAN port to 50Mbit/s

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by tonyb on Thursday January 02, 2014 @11:39AM (#7000438)
With DOCSIS cable modems only the provider can update the firmware. And end user doesn't have the ability to update the firmware, even if they own the modem. That is part of the DOCSIS standard.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by tonyb on Thursday January 02, 2014 @11:38AM (#7000432)
This doesn't help you at all.

The provider is able to change the settings through two primary methods.

1. DOCSIS configuration file - this is the file your modem downloads when it comes online and includes settings like your speeds (Upstream/Downstream service flows) and it also includes the SNMP settings (used for #2).

2. SNMP - The MSO can also remotely monitor and change your modem via SNMP. There is a large number of DOCSIS MIBs that every cable modem must support in order to get certified and there are also vendor specific MIBs that a modems manufacture will add to support specific features of that modem.

Without SNMP it would be very difficult to maintain a cable network. Other types of access networks have similar features.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by MrBuddyCasino on Thursday January 02, 2014 @02:31PM (#7001664)
Not sure I got that - why is cable different in this regard from DSL? I'm pretty sure there is such thing built into adsl/vdsl routers or modems, at least not in Germany.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by superuser2 on Thursday January 02, 2014 @03:02PM (#7001877)
DSL is provided over a POTS ("plain old telephone service") line. The demarc for POTS, at least in my neighborhood, is a grey box on the side of your house, well upstream of your DSL modem.

I don't know why exactly it worked out that way, but the telephone system is designed to deal with consumer electronics and the coax cable system is not.

It didn't used to be - until the federal government busted AT&T's monopoly, it was illegal to connect non-AT&T equipment to the AT&T network, at least electrically. This is why in old movies you see people dialing ISPs by hand with a phone and then setting the handset down on a cradle - the cradle was the modem, and it interfaced with the telephone network acoustically. The demarc (at least as we know it today) was presumably introduced after the government told AT&T they had to let people have their own networks, rather than considering everything up through the phones to be part of the telco network.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by josh2600 on Thursday January 02, 2014 @04:57PM (#7002609)
These are called VRADs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRAD.

The demarc for your DSL is the modem. If you provide your own modem you still are subject to AT&T's rules. You cannot legally connect to sensitive national infrastructure (like the phone network) without the provider being responsible for your access.

As far as connecting equipment, that significantly predates divestiture. Most people point to Carterfone as the salient decision that changed this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterfone

In reality, there was actually a prior decision which I can't seem to find right now where AT&T refused to allow people to put plastic privacy guards over the mouth piece on the grounds that it would damage the phone network. Ludicrous, but sensible from an economic standpoint.

EDIT: Found it, 1956 Hush-a-phone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush-A-Phone_v._United_States

In short, Telecom is complicated, the demarc is important and you don't own any part of the network from the modem on up.

Source: I am a telecom junkie and I work at 2600hz, the open source telecom company.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by mutantmonkey on Thursday January 02, 2014 @12:28AM (#6998356)
Of course they can. The way DOCSIS is designed, your cable company has full access to your modem; your modem receives configuration data via TFTP from them and in most cases the firmware can only be updated over the coax interface. In fact, it's very rare that there's any configuration you can change on the DOCSIS modem side of things at all, even on the most expensive modems.

Lately cable companies have been pushing these hybrid modem/router combinations with things like wifi support built in. From a consumer standpoint, this seems very convenient, but the cable companies do this because it makes it easier for then. If you call up with an issue with "your Internet," they can remotely diagnose it and reset your modem/router. Make no mistake; they have more control over these than you do.

If you want to stop your ISP from having administrative access to your "private connection" (I assume you mean your wifi), then don't put the modem and the router in the same box. There's no other way around this.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by ryanhuff on Thursday January 02, 2014 @04:45AM (#6998891)
That wasn't my experience with Time Warner and my Motorola cable modem, at least as far as dealing with modem issues (firmware). They referred me to Motorola.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by mutantmonkey on Thursday January 02, 2014 @06:11AM (#6999081)
Were you able to get your firmware upgraded? My understanding is that firmware upgrades can only be done over coax (there's certainly nothing on the web interface), but Time Warner Cable will not upgrade your firmware; so if you need a firmware upgrade you're pretty much out of luck.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by jauer on Thursday January 02, 2014 @04:15AM (#6998831)
Many (most?) large providers use TR-069 in the CPE that they provide. This is how they push out firmware & config updates and provide some managed services to SoHo customers.

You might be surprised at how much a provider support rep can see with this. Here's two screenshots from Cisco's product to give you a idea: http://images.newsfactor.com/images/super/larger-12-ClearAcc... http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/60/01/072589/clearaccess...

Moral of the story: Use the most basic cable/dsl modem that they'll give you, make it as close to bridge mode as you can, and use your own router.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by wtallis on Thursday January 02, 2014 @12:25AM (#6998345)
This is one of many reasons why routers should be purchased separately from modems, and modems should be configured to be as dumb as possible.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by dspillett on Thursday January 02, 2014 @04:12AM (#6998819)
That is very common with provider issued equipment. Anything you get from your ISP should be considered their equipment rather than yours and your's should assume therefore that they maintain some sort of control over it. For serving very non-technical home users this is actually an advantage.

Over here when you are BT's FTTC setup through any ISP the vDSL modem that hangs off your master socket (which can do more but is used in this arrangement to simple pick up the connection from the phone line and provide PPPoE on the ethernet port) is very definitely BT/OR's: they tell you not to mess with it, people who want to mess with it have to use hacks to get access to the UI (which is otherwise locked off), and if you plug something else in at that point you are officially not supported. If the router that you plug in to that came from your ISP then that is their's (usually you have to return it when you leave).

If you buy your own router (or "make" your own, people who have a small Linux machine on 24/7 for various things just set that up to talk PPPoE directly and skip the router altogether, neatly avoiding the limits of many "consumer grade" units (shoddy IPv6 support for instance) without shelling out for a much better device) only then do you truly have control of security at that point in the topology. But some ISPs won't support you if you don't use the provided router (though if you know enough to purchase your own router you might not find such an ISP's tech support much help anyway).

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by mukundmr on Thursday January 02, 2014 @01:19AM (#6998478)
I had a problem of DNS poisoning on my router + modem for a long time even though remote access was disabled and my computers were clean. The DNS entries kept changing to bad ones (even after a factory reset). I ended up switching the modem to bridge mode and using a router of my own to resolve the problem.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by tylerkahn on Thursday January 02, 2014 @11:30AM (#7000382)
I had to call Comcast in order to disable the Wifi radio on my modem.

Not really a backdoor, just remote administration.

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by muyuu on Thursday January 02, 2014 @11:29PM (#7004176)
Proprietary software, firmware and hardware ultimately means you don't own the stuff you use. Goes on at all levels and people interiorise it to the point that they will take it as a given and justify uses that are not truly justifiable. ISPs do not need this kind of policy to operate, regardless what you'll read in this thread.
Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by qthrul on Thursday January 02, 2014 @02:47AM (#6998643)
You and others that are curious about what end user equipment management controls are possible might enjoy reading about specs like TR-069, etc.

http://www.lightreading.com/tr-069-still-sexy-after-all-thes...

Re:Backdoor found in Linksys, Netgear Routers by blueskin_ on Thursday January 02, 2014 @10:25AM (#6999965)
I've heard from others that the passwords are stored in plaintext and viewable by support too, at least at some ISPs.

Now combine that with the typical user's tendency towards password reuse...