"It's the fundamentalists who get into this "lake of fire" bit and such."
Indeed. Nevertheless, it is in the Bible you know: Matthew 25:41, Mark 9:43, Luke 16:22-24, Revelation 14:9-11, probably others: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:41,...;
"I also think that you're arguing with what some bunch of folks "think" some other (probably imaginary) being will do, and that seems really, really silly to me."
My great hope is that they will come to see that their concept of God is contradictory.
"Better to determine what you think about the idea of God in general"
What I think is that P(God), while low, is much, much higher than P(God and Hell).
I would sooner choose hell than follow a God that was holding damnation over my head, though I think I would be happier if I was so delusional.
Ah, well, the thread is dead.
(sorry for presumed IP block to all those outside of the USA)
It certainly is a much more defensible position.
But if it's fleshed out so that the afterlife of the damned is so unpleasant that they would end their existence if they could, it comes to much the same thing.
If it simply means annihilation, then fine. As I've noted, that's not how Jesus put it (according to the gospel authors, anyway). But OK.
You take a lot more comfort than I do. If we went back 400 years and had this conversation, you would be just as sure of our moral understandings. So I'm not convinced in the least that if we went forward 400 years that our understanding of morality and ethics will remain the same. Perhaps you are. But I take too much faith in human progress to think we're anywhere near being done.
Yes, instead of allegorical and spiritual stories, the definition of fundamentalists is that they take holy writings just the same as we would a newspaper, or encyclopedia. Lots of stuff in the Bible (even more in the Koran, but I digress) I don't think it does justice to the word "religion" to pick some one stance and attack it -- there are as many micro-versions of religion as there are people probably. Most modern atheists take some form of fundamentalism to use as their straw man. If that makes your boat float, fine. But Christianity has always evolved -- much more than the other religions. It's not a static target, and I bet (based on history) it will continue to evolve for many centuries to come.
Now, lets look at the fundamental morals behind the Bible, New Testament of course, because with the New Testament we were given a new law.
- Love one another - Be a generous, helpful person - Accept personal responsibility - Don't have a sense of entitlement - Honor and cherish your spouse - Don't mislead or abuse children - Honor your parents - Be proactive - Resist conformity - Abide by the laws - Don't be judgmental - Be kind - Be compassionate - Be empathetic - Don't be obsessed with possessions or wealth - Work hard - Ignorance is not an excuse - People are people, no matter their ethnicity - Be tolerant - Don't cheat - Everything in moderation
I could probably go on if I thought about it more, these are the immediate things that I try to keep in my mind from my studying. Say what you will, but that's a pretty good model for living life. One that I try my best to implement, and constantly fail at, but hey, practice makes habit.
I don't think gort would have any problem with those morals. What he has a problem with is:
"Love one another - Be a generous, helpful person - Accept personal responsibility, etc., etc.,... because otherwise, you'll burn in hell"
As an agnostic, I find it amusing that someone would demand that god conform to human morality. But it's an understandable viewpoint.
Maybe I'm wrong, who knows.
Religion is based around the limitations of human knowledge. The idea is that the Great Spirit, Great Father, or whatever is older and wiser than us (but yet strangely human!) so he understands things we do not. Just as when we were a child we did not understand things, now the Big Dude With The Beard knows things far beyond our kin.
Like a child, you can stamp your feet and complain about his/her/it lack of suitable morality for you all you want, but it really just plays into the entire metaphor, doesn't it?
I can tell you that more liberal Christans view sin as being apart from God, and hell as being simply apart from God forever. Taken this way, it simply means that if you're doing okay with the plan (whatever the plan is) you get to hang out with the big guy. If not, you don't. And that's awful! You really want to hang out with the big guy.
It's the fundamentalists who get into this "lake of fire" bit and such. I imagine "not hanging with the Big Kahuna" doesn't bring in the converts as much as "tearing your eyes out with pain" but I was never much into marketing and sales.
As for me, and you seem to be interested in my morals, I'm perfectly happy not being able to make moral decisions for God. As long as he returns the favor. (grin) I don't think that torturing folks for eternity is moral for me to do, but I try to confine my judgments of morality to myself. I also think that you're arguing with what some bunch of folks "think" some other (probably imaginary) being will do, and that seems really, really silly to me. Better to determine what you think about the idea of God in general -- any kind of God -- before you go lumping the whole kit and kaboodle together and passing your own judgment on it.