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Re:Why Your Name Matters by pessimizer on Saturday December 21, 2013 @07:58AM (#6946551)
Your name matters in the US because if you sound (or look) like you're black, white people won't hire you, or listen to you, really, as much as your white peers. They'll see your work as worse than your peers' work when they are equivalent. You have to be the best of all your peers in order not to be the first to be laid off, because your pain and discomfort is less intelligible to your bosses than your coworkers' pain and discomfort.

As a Jamal, I've found it pretty effective to use young white men as a proxy to push projects in the direction that I think they should go in. White kids fresh out of college (at least of late, maybe past 5-10 years) seem to be less racist than their older peers, and really impressed that you're older and you know a lot of stuff.

Sadly, I think that this generation's freshly graduated white kids are less racist simply because they have had less direct experience of black people than their parents and grandparents, who moved as far from black people as they possibly could. A professionally intimidating black person (because I have 15 years experience and they have 5, not because I'm that good:)) as a living, breathing reality in front of them is a fascinating novelty that they have no idea how to react to. They may rap at you sometimes, though. Ugh.

This article gets a bit bogged down in the "name" aspect of the thing, though. Race is a cultural construction designed to rationalize outgroup discrimination, and consists of a bunch of markers that people use to determine which group you should be placed in, and therefore how you should be treated. A name doesn't have to be "Da'Quan," "Monique Washington" will work as well.

Re:Why Your Name Matters by tseabrooks on Saturday December 21, 2013 @09:29AM (#6946725)
It's a bit more complicated than this. I think you start hitting on the reality towards the end but get detoured by racism in the beginning.

It's all about tribal identification. I don't mean tribes in the historical sense but more akin to Godin's idea of tribes. They're the people you identify with. It's pretty well established that people like people like themselves. This isn't really that crazy. It's easy to see that liking people like yourself isn't the same as hating people that are different, it does often mean you don't respond as warmly though.

Names, just like race, is just one marker, as you described it, that defines what tribe we belong to. We are all in the business of quickly assessing the situation and placing people into tribes mentally, probably unconsciously, as soon as we meet them and we will adjust our perception as we learn more about them, of course.

The point of these rambling paragraphs is that I don't think this is the same as racism, though it certainly can become racism when taken to the extreme. A good example is our friend groups. If we like a certain music, a certain type of game (DnD) then you're likely to end up in a friend group with a very similar set of interests.

This gets expanded to the work place in an interesting way. Lots of hip trendy employers say things like, "We wanted to build a company we loved coming to everyday". Well, in order to love being at the office every day you're going to have to like the people. Does this mean they have to be perfect matches for someone you'd place in your friend group, in your tribe? No. But it does mean they're going to have to match on some of those markers.

Companies talk about "cultural fit" when hiring, hell it's on the front page here pretty regularly. In my estimation this isn't that far from not hiring people based on race. Instead we're not hiring based on some other set of markers other than race. What we're really talking about is cultural-ism where we discriminate based on particular subcultures, and markers for those subcultures.

I won't argue fairness or anything like that but I do think it's important to explore the ideas that we discriminate against people regularly and only ascribe malice when it's down for racial reasons.

(Not that it should matter but I'm black and I run a team of about 16 people (all white) doing sales/product management/project management/ software development in the South)

Re:Why Your Name Matters by lisper on Saturday December 21, 2013 @08:17AM (#6946586)
> white people won't hire you, or listen to you

Some white people. Not all white people. The qualifier is important. With it, it's a true statement. Without it, it's a racist slur.

Re:Why Your Name Matters by walshemj on Saturday December 21, 2013 @08:40AM (#6946626)
yeah right there's enough studies showing that identical CVs with ethnic names get discriminated to make your point moot - I am a middle class white and i can see that.
Re:Why Your Name Matters by lisper on Saturday December 21, 2013 @09:18AM (#6946695)
> I am a middle class white

Why is that relevant? Does being a middle class white have an impact on your ability to discern the truth? Why "I am a middle class white and i can see that" and not, say, "I am a fisherman and I can see that."?

But as to your point, consider these statements:

1. Middle class whites use faulty logic in Hacker News discussions.

2. Some middle class whites use faulty logic in Hacker News discussions.

Notwithstanding the results of any studies, do you not see that there's a salient difference between the two?

Re:Why Your Name Matters by walshemj on Saturday December 21, 2013 @11:34AM (#6947026)
I meant that as a privileged person even I can see that other groups and minorities have much harder time than I do - something you obviously do not - possibly you need to take a look at your self.

You where using a spurious "logical" argument to excuse racist views.

Re:Why Your Name Matters by lisper on Saturday December 21, 2013 @12:47PM (#6947288)
> something you obviously do not

Really? What makes that so obvious?

> You where using a spurious "logical" argument to excuse racist views.

Which racist views am I excusing? Because I don't think I'm excusing a racist view at all. Quite the contrary.

The only thing I've actually said that you could legitimately judge me by is that it important to qualify the statement "if you sound (or look) like you're black then white people won't hire you, or listen to you" because if you don't qualify it then it sounds like you are making a statement about all white people, and this statement is only true of some white people, not all white people. So if you don't qualify it, it's a racist slur, no different from saying, "Moslems are terrorists" or "black people are criminals". Some (but not all) Moslems are terrorists (and so are some non-Moslems), and some (but not all) black people are criminals (and so are some white people), and some (but not all) white people are racists (and so, by the way, are some black people).

Do you actually disagree with any of that?