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Re:Cars Kill Cities by jseliger on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @06:04PM (#6884525)
(correction applied)

Thanks, fixed!

Because I can go wherever I want, whenever I want, with my whole family (pets included), with a trunkful of cargo, as I see fit.

But at very high cost, per The High Cost of Free Parking, and at high time costs: I'm struck by the way that, when I lived in Tucson, it took seemingly 30 or 40 minutes to get anywhere. Now I live in New York City and it takes about the same, but the default transportation mode is different!

Re:Cars Kill Cities by vacri on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @06:16PM (#6884599)
In my own experience, if you're working outside peak commuting hours, public transport is horrible. Take a cold winter, services 20 minutes apart. One service is missed, cancelled, whatever, you're now there for 40 minutes waiting for your bus. Of course, you don't know that the service is missed, you're just waiting at a pole. And in my case, it was a connecting service, so repeat the process for the second leg of the journey. Sometimes it would have been just as fast to walk the 75 minutes home - though of course, there's no way of knowing from the outset.

My housemates were dyed-in-the-wool public transport users, the 'everything we need' variety, and then I went overseas for three months in which they had use of my car. On return, "we're getting our own car". Driving crosstown for a commute is faster than the 15-minute walk to the bus, the two-leg bus/train commute, and the 10-minute walk from the station.

Carrying your groceries on public transport sucks. Apart from a handful of cities, post-midnight travel sucks. Cancelled services suck. Being squished into someone else's armpit during peak commute sucks. Having to commute (walk) to your commute (bus) then commute again (walk) sucks when the weather is bad. Public transport with more than one leg in the trip sucks. Public transport that doesn't go where you want to go sucks.

Public transport is awesome and there should be much more investment in it, but there are a ton of reasons why personal cars are fantastic.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by anthonyb on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @06:42PM (#6884742)
Bear in mind that you're comparing mostly-decent road transport to generally-awful public transport.

Buses, for example, suck - they're always going to be a worse experience than a car (walking 10+ minutes to the stop at each end + waiting, to be stuck in exactly the same traffic).

Now if public transport had the same investment as private, it'd be a different kettle of fish. Take a look at http://carfree.com/intro_cfc.html and http://carfree.com/topology.html as an example of what might be possible with rail and sufficient political will. <5 minutes to a train stop, <30 minutes to anywhere else, <5 minutes to your final destination == max 40 minute trip in a city of 1M people.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by ecocentrik on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @09:46PM (#6885561)
Buses don't have to get stuck in the same traffic. Bogota, Columbia and more recently New York City have dedicated cross town bus lanes.

Edit: video of the Bogota bus system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6ImWY4IBc

Re:Cars Kill Cities by prawn on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @07:16PM (#6884919)
If there were more users of public transport (e.g., less parking available, etc), it's likely that service and intervals would improve.
Re:Cars Kill Cities by hoers on Wednesday December 11, 2013 @07:15AM (#6887231)
This. I live in Berlin, which invested heavily in public transportation over the decades, leading the majority of my friends to not even having a drivers license (me included). You can get anywhere pretty much anytime, often considerably faster than taking a car, especially on day time when you easily spend 30min just looking for a spot.

Plus if you combine public transport with a decent bike - no car will ever beat you in this city.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by ido on Wednesday December 11, 2013 @01:25PM (#6889473)
Heh, as a new arrival to Berlin I wish it had the quality of transit that Vienna does! :)
Re:Cars Kill Cities by ctdonath on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @10:16PM (#6885659)
Sure, cars suck for some scenarios. Bikes and public transport work much better there. Frankly, I don't like living in those conditions.

Bikes and public transport suck for other scenarios. Right now I'd spend more time just walking to & from bus stops than my entire commute, and biking the 15 miles to work would get me killed by the end of the week.

Live where it suits you. Ticks me off that the public transport crowd wants to actively deny me both my money and preferred mode of transport, when I wish to deny them nothing but my involvement.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by bmj on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @06:56PM (#6884819)
I'm struck by the way that, when I lived in Tucson, it took seemingly 30 or 40 minutes to get anywhere.

I'm currently staying in Tucson for a brief spell, and I am struck by the very same thing! It's kinda crazy. I certainly don't live in a completely walkable city neighborhood back east, but I can be at the office in ~25 minutes on my bike, and most errands can be done on my bike or my scooter.

As for high costs, I think it's all a trade-off, right? We're a one car family (I've never actually driven to work in 15+ years), but we travel extensively in our VW van. So, the benefits we get from owning it out-weigh the costs. That said, I've applied the same analysis to owning a car for getting to work--it's far cheaper, and more enjoyable, for me to bike (and occasionally take the bus) rather than deal with another vehicle. I suspect most car-bound commuters (or suburbanites who must drive 15-30 minutes to get anywhere) have done similar math in their head (or on paper), and decided that the benefits of location and car ownership out-weight the costs. Of course, plenty of those folks also likely complain about gas prices and traffic, too!

Re:Cars Kill Cities by mildtrepidation on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @06:21PM (#6884629)
There are so many different factors in those two situations that they're barely comparable.

Yes, there are many costs associated with car ownership, and I'm sure there are some in terms of behavior that that book may describe. But depending on where you live there are also costs to not owning a car, including the inability to get anywhere, either at all or in a timely manner.

I'm looking forward to living in a city (thought not in the US) and going without for a while, but the only reason I'll try it is because I know I'm going somewhere with vastly better public transportation and in proximity to the things I need and want to do.

Living without a car makes sense for some people, in some places, in some situations. Sometimes, though, expensive or not, it just doesn't.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by ekianjo on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @08:44PM (#6885355)
Even in Japan if you only rely on Public Transportation (and you probably have heard its one of the best out there, worldwide), there are a number of situation where it just does not work. For example: you want to come back later than 11h30 pm ? Bad luck, most of the metro/train lines have stopped.

Or, there's usually always a way to get from point A to B with public transport, but unless you go to major stations or hubs you need to change several times, take an additional bus and walk an additional x minutes. It's very tiring and inefficient, and costly as well, because public transports aren't subsidized here as much as in Europe for example.

And of course, if you ever want to carry something large and heavy with you, welcome to hell, with a number of stations with no elevators and just stairs, and lack of space in trains to even put your stuff.

It's fairly obvious there are excellent use cases for having a car. Or at least renting one when you need it.

ANd that's not even considering : confort, risk of viral transmission (did you take this in account when considering the cost on society ?) and freedom aspects.

Re:Cars Kill Cities by toddmorey on Tuesday December 10, 2013 @09:35PM (#6885514)
Yes, although owning, driving, and parking a car in Japan are not pleasant experiences, either. I remember one drive in particular when traffic was stalled so badly people were just leaving their cars idle to go pee on the side of the road.

I do think the most ideal setup would be public transport for most occasions combined with car rentals / delivery for large items.