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Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by DanielBMarkham on Sunday July 05, 2009 @10:44AM (#688276)
I'm somewhat amused by all this discussion about brain-enhancing chemicals. It's different, yet it is strangely the same.

As a vitamin junkie, I truly believe that certain "hacks" allow me to do better on interviews: caffeine, ginko, SAMe, glutamine, etc. Maybe by a few percentage points. Nothing to write home about, but worth the investment for the job interview.

But these kids aren't going for job interviews. And they're not talking about run-of-the-mill OTC brain hacking. They're talking about using high-performance brain-targeted stimulants as part of a maximization strategy for some test in school. As if anybody gives a rat's ass about what you made on calculus finals six months from now.

Let's see: brain damage versus 10 points less on a test you're never going to talk about (unless you fail). I think this risk analysis is a no-brainer here, to use a pun.

I'm concerned that what's really going on is that some people are just wired to go screw around with their bodies using chemicals. This whole take-to-maximize-study rationale is just another in a long line of rationales going back many decades. There was drug use to combat the drudgery of life. Drug use to protest the system. Drug use to find inner peace. Drug use for religious exploration. Drug use for sports enhancement. Drug use to prolong life. Now we have drug use for educational enhancement.

I'm not saying this is wrong -- whatever that means. Perhaps there is an evolutionary competitive advantage to hacking your brain with chemicals and, if so, we're seeing a new branch of the human family tree. Or perhaps we're still four hundred years away from true brain hacking and this is just another in a long line of reasons to screw around with reality.

Timothy Leary may be dead, but he's far from gone.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by j_baker on Sunday July 05, 2009 @12:06PM (#688357)
The thing is that amphetamines are some of the most well understood medications prescribed by doctors. They've been prescribed for almost 80 years. Doctors know their effects better than most "conventional" medicines. And it has never been proven that they have seriously harmful side effects when taken under appropriate medical supervision. Although it's hard to objectively diagnose ADHD (just like any other psychiatric condition), doctors know what they're doing when they prescribe stimulants.

Therefore, the choice isn't "brain damage vs 10 points on a test." It's more like "performing like a normal human being vs failing at life."

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by DanielBMarkham on Sunday July 05, 2009 @01:03PM (#688427)
Is the topic here people that self-medicate in order to gain a few points on a test over non-medicated folks, or people who have serious, real brain problems that need some intervention to be more normal?

Because I'm talking about the first case, and you seem to be talking about the second. The article, to me, was geared toward the first scenario. If you'd like to talk about the second scenario, that's fair game, but not what I was talking about at all.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by j_baker on Sunday July 05, 2009 @01:59PM (#688503)
That's a fair point. I think the article was more saying "You should only take stimulants if they're prescribed to you. But whether they were prescribed to you or not, here's how to get the most out of them."

At least that's how I read it.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by kragen on Sunday July 05, 2009 @02:22PM (#688534)
I don't really think that it's okay that our society penalizes people who are bad at taking tests, because test-taking isn't actually productive work. But the fact remains that it does, and they're something that a lot of people have trouble with, and have a lot less trouble when they're on speed. While we're working to reform the education system, we shouldn't deny people the chemicals they need to cope with the system as it is.

When it comes to taking tests, 99% of the population seems to me like they have serious brain problems. They perform far below my level, which I arbitrarily designate as normal. The kinds of "real brain problems that need some intervention" that we're talking about here are defined pretty empirically; we mostly aren't talking about things that show up on an MRI, we're talking about things that are "diagnosed" by people scoring 1½σ below the mean on an IQ test.

To take a concrete and fairly extreme example, I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people that they can see a word spelled correctly dozens or hundreds of times and still not know how to spell it. But that seems to be the case for 99% of the population.

The function of correct spelling in modern society seems to me to be essentially the same as the function of good penmanship a century ago: to demonstrate to the reader that the writer is properly educated, i.e. approximately that their parents were rich enough that they didn't have to pull them out of school in 1950 when they were 10 to work on the farm. Fundamentally, this is harmful to the social fabric. Either prejudice distracts from the quality of the writing — there are any number of Nobel-winning writers with terrible spelling and penmanship.

(I was expelled from eighth grade for picking a particularly inopportune time to explain this point of view, somewhat less articulately: coming in second in the regional spelling bee, if I remember correctly.)

It's fortunate that this particular neurological deficit doesn't happen to cause any harm, and unfortunate that we choose to stigmatize the 99% of the population who's dramatically worse at it than I am. But given that there's a relatively safe drug that allows many people to escape that stigma, it seems reasonable to let them have it until such time as we can expiate the stigma.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by swombat on Sunday July 05, 2009 @07:41PM (#688868)
Quick note about the spelling thing - I agree on the whole, but you should be aware that there are glaring exceptions. Right now I work a lot with architects, for example, and many of them are very smart and yet have disastrous spelling abilities.

Since I observed that there are smart people who can't spell, I've revised spelling ability down to "weak indicator" of stupidity or poor education. I.e., if someone spells poorly and has a few other things going against them, then the spelling will help decide the matter. But I would not make any rapid judgements on someone's intelligence based purely on their spelling/grammar.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by kragen on Monday July 06, 2009 @12:43AM (#689164)
I guess I wasn't very clear, because that's one of the points I was trying to make.
Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by rms on Sunday July 05, 2009 @04:39PM (#688713)
Amphetamines don't cause brain damage in either case -- look at the military use, from World War II on.
Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by tokenadult on Sunday July 05, 2009 @06:45PM (#688829)
Amphetamines are well known to induce mania, which is one reason they are no longer used, as there were formerly used, to treat depression.

I'd like to see some medical references for the statement "amphetamines don't cause brain damage," because study of long-term neurotoxicity or neuroprotective effects of most medicines is still in very early stages. What medical journal references can you cite on that point for amphetamines?

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by brl on Sunday July 05, 2009 @10:14PM (#688994)
Look at Paul Erdős.
Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by rjurney on Sunday July 05, 2009 @02:09PM (#688520)
The ironic part of your post is that the artificial, chemical vitamins and potent herbs that you take are probably more dangerous to your health than 10mg of amphetamine: a well characterized, safe, single substance. :) Herbs contain so many chemicals we do not understand its not funny. Many thin the blood and can cause bleeding. Herbs kill more people than pharmaceutical doses of amphetamines ever have.

A family friend just died from a random brain bleed, well before his time. Guess how many herbs he took? There is a strong correlation between random brain bleeds and herb use, it just isn't substantiated well enough to pull them from the market yet. I hear about them all the time. Which is a damn shame. Herbs kill.

So do yourself a favor: go get a Ritalin or Adderall prescription and cut the vitamin overdoses and herbs. You'll probably live longer ;)

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by DanielBMarkham on Sunday July 05, 2009 @06:14PM (#688796)
Point taken. I will consider it. For now, however, I'm of the opinion that there's a lot more herb use around the world than Ritalin use, and in 5 or ten years maybe all these experimenters with brain enhancement (and not simple amphetamines) will give us better data to make decisions with.

I think there is an implied dichotomy that I did not mean to make: I'm perfectly happy with people hacking their brains. I'm perfectly happy with the natural state of mankind being some sort of intoxication, whether it's spoiled fruits, running, nicotine, or whatever.

I'm just amused at the rationales being used, which seem to me to have all sort of inner contradictions.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by rjurney on Sunday July 05, 2009 @07:16PM (#688849)
According to wikipedia, amphetamine was first synthesized in 1887, has been used since 1927. Its been almost 100 years.

Ritalin was synthesized in 1954. In use clinically for 50 years.

How's that for data? Pretty good, I'd say. It is well known that these chemicals at high levels eat people's souls, but do not do much physical damage. At clinical doses they're harmless. Some caution in kids for heart shenanigans. They're very well characterized.

I expressed some of the same concerns you did to my doctor when he first prescribed me amphetamine. He told me about his speed freak patients, and how they returned to normal after coming off.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by devin on Sunday July 05, 2009 @10:30PM (#689019)
A very thoughtful and well-written post. Thank you for that.

I would like to talk just for a moment about my problems with concentration. ADD is a very real problem for me. I don't mean this in a learned helplessness, "trust me I've been diagnosed" sort of way. I mean it in a "Everything in my entire life points to this diagnosis, 100% -- and I would challenge anyone to try and explain it in an alternative fashion."

I won't go into the details and don't really care to discuss my symptoms and issues much further. However I will say that there are many people out there who are correctly diagnosed as ADD, and whom would probably have never finish high school, let alone college, without the aid of adderall, ritalin, etc. I can tell you this with a certain level of confidence because I am one of them.

I never abused them, and avoided taking them because they make me feel like a zombie, no sense of humor, lack of appetite, irritable, etc. However, for many people out there, they're not just a brain hack, they're the only ticket they have to competing with brains that have a normal level of attention.

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by GHFigs on Sunday July 05, 2009 @02:08PM (#688516)
I think it's a bit simpler than people being wired differently.

Stimulants feel good, regardless of their other effects. People will always want to rationalize continuing to do something that feels good. Again, regardless of the other effects both positive and negative.

The difference here is that this rationale is culturally acceptable. It's become good to use these drugs for this reason. The PR submarine[1] is out in full force[2], building positive associations (Take these drugs and you'll get into Harvard!) and diminishing negatives ones ("Progress often carries risk.") That, to me, is what makes this tend unsettling, far more than the drugs themselves.

[1]:http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html [2]:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mindenhancing-drug...

Re:How To Take Ritalin Correctly by lsc on Sunday July 05, 2009 @09:27PM (#688943)
From what I understand, Ritalin is prescribed precisely because it has much less of that 'euphoria' than, say, Dexedrine. In my completely subjective experience, Ritalin causes less 'euphoria' than caffeine. Granted, I think Caffeine, especially the first sip after going several days without, feels quite good. But, if I am on vacation; I mean, real vacation where I am not working on anything, I don't take the Ritalin. I feel better without it, if I'm not trying to do something.

It is very important, if you do use psychoactive drugs, to have some sort of external metric. When I was undergoing various ADD treatments, I had my boss evaluate me every week. I found that what I was doing before (that is, using unusually large amounts of caffeine) was not better than baseline me.