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Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by JulianMorrison on Saturday December 07, 2013 @07:52PM (#6868467)
"Many worlds" makes this "instantaneous" communication moot, which is why I'm surprised so many physicists are barking up the other tree. In "many worlds" what actually happens when a thing "decoheres" is that the experimenter gets pulled into its superposition. So now instead of a dead-alive cat and one scientist, you've got one dead cat, one alive cat, one sad scientist, one happy scientist. Or from another perspective, a dead-alive cat and a sad-happy scientist - the superposition still exists, but the number of things inside it has increased.

So, "I flip a coin and whichever it comes up, heads or tails, the other entangled coin flipped at the same instant comes up the the opposite, with instantaneous communication" is the wrong view. Rather, the coins are entangled (in the past), and observing them pulls the observers into the entanglement one atom at a time as the informational contagion spreads, so now you have world A, where scientists saw "heads, tails" and world B where the same scientists saw "tails,heads". The scientists got slurped in, but they are simply observing an entanglement that existed and still exists and which was established in the past. Only now they are observing it from inside.

Quantum spooky action "at a distance" is local in "many worlds" and never needs to be faster than light.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by joe_the_user on Sunday December 08, 2013 @03:17AM (#6869278)
As I understand it, the "spooky action" is completely an artifact of the perception of randomness in the initial process.

Take a black stone and a white stone, shake up in your hand, put one in one sealed container and one in a second sealed container. Take the two containers a hundred light year apart. Open one and "suddenly" you know the contents of another container light years away.

I don't know how "spooky action" differs from this except in the way the process gets described. You could say "wow, until you know whether there's a black stone or a white stone in there, it's like the stone is half white and half black." You could but how does that help? I mean quantum seems to take a "because it absolutely can't be measured till, it absolutely doesn't happen till later" but that seems to just contradict ordinary understanding in gratuitously unnecessarily fashion.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by mike_esspe on Sunday December 08, 2013 @03:48AM (#6869306)
You are explaining "hidden variable" theory. It is currently considered not compatible with experiments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by EliRivers on Sunday December 08, 2013 @08:10AM (#6869618)
I don't know how "spooky action" differs from this except in the way the process gets described.

Because, when you put the white stone in one jar and the black stone in the other, it's decided. One of them does contain a white stone. One of them does contain a black stone. The universe "knows" which is which. The decision has been made.

With the entangled particles, it's not decided. You separate them, and you do NOT have one particle in "up" state and one particle in "down" state. That decision has not yet been made. It's not the case that one of them is "up" and you just haven't checked yet; one of them is not "up". One of them is not "down". The decision has not been made. One will be "up" and the other "down" when the decision is made, but that random decision has not yet been made.

You then move them a long way apart, and look at one of them; the decision is now made for BOTH of them, even though they're very far apart.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by zipfle on Sunday December 08, 2013 @08:35AM (#6869648)
Maybe this is a silly question, but if you haven't looked at them, how do you know the decision hasn't been made?
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by EliRivers on Sunday December 08, 2013 @08:42AM (#6869661)
There are two answers to that; both the same. One them is "simple" fact, the other one is the same with a whole lot of explanation and maths and all sorts that, to be honest, I wouldn't trust myself to get right even given a day to dig it all up and write it out, and ultimately it finishes in the same place anyway. So I'll just give you the "simple" fact version, without supporting documentation, I'm afraid.

Here it is; because that's how the universe works.

That decision doesn't get made until "something" checks it/depends on it/interacts with it (the English language, at heart a way of telling macroscopic monkeys about tigers and bananas, does struggle a bit here). If you go digging yourself, you'll be able to go as deep as you like. I apologise for not presenting a better answer, but I'd really be doing you a disservice.

Edit: It's really not a good answer at all. I'm digging through old reddit threads to see if RobotRollCall ever talked about this. Her explanations were generally very accessible.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by joe_the_user on Monday December 09, 2013 @09:49PM (#6878697)
Yes, one would do better with some less dogmatic assertion.

I asked the original question and I've harassed people with this question enough that I vaguely recall the answer.

In terms of the boxes, the answer is you wind-up breaking open the boxes over time in different ways that wind-up with being incapable with the perspective that "just" a black stone or "just" a white stone is in each box.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox#Mathematical_formul...

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by Morgawr on Sunday December 08, 2013 @03:54AM (#6869316)
I remember years ago, back in highschool, when I studied quantum mechanics, our professor suggested this idea (he used a blue and a red ball in two briefcases) as a comparison to entanglement and then disproved it explaining that it's not quite the same.

Unfortunately, too many years passed and I don't remember the counter-argument that explains why you can't apply that logic to entanglement but it involved Bell's theorem[1] and the EPR Paradox[2]. Actually I think Einstein himself made a counter-argument similar to that (just not with stones/balls but with actual particles) and was disproved later on. Sorry if I can't give more details, I'm not a physicist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by warptera1 on Sunday December 08, 2013 @03:49AM (#6869308)
Your view was Einstein's view articulated in the 1935-1936 EPR Paradox paper. It proved that you need either local, real, hidden variables to account for quantum entanglement or FTL communication between particles was necessary--widely believed to be in violation of special relativity.

Bell's inequality paper in 1964 proved that the predictions of a local reality system and a quantum entanglement system are in fact different for certain polarization experiments.

Subsequent experimentation proved the two theories to be mutually exclusive and results back up FTL communication. An FTL mechanism has not been found experimentally, however we know that special relativity is not violated because quantum uncertainty prevents information from being transmitted via entanglement at FTL speeds.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by gibybo on Saturday December 07, 2013 @08:30PM (#6868581)
Many worlds is also my preferred interpretation, but it really puts the weirdness of super position into perspective. If we really are splitting entire universes all willy-nilly like, maybe some of the other possibilities aren't so weird in comparison. Is causality-breaking FTL travel really more improbable than the universe splitting into infinite pieces just from the act of observing particles?
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by JulianMorrison on Saturday December 07, 2013 @09:27PM (#6868727)
It isn't so much splitting as getting involved in other particle's business.
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by richardw on Sunday December 08, 2013 @02:31AM (#6869229)
What I don't like about many worlds is that it's spectacularly inefficient w.r.t. energy. A whole new universe is created for each option. That's very wasteful and doesn't gel with so much of what we see around us. Sure, you can say that energy is fixed within each universe but not in the whole system, but that sets off my internal Occam's Razor.

You also don't just have two worlds, you have infinite. In the coin-flipping example, whenever a coin is flipped there are many other universe-splitting this-or-that events happening elsewhere in the universe at the same instant. So each instant there are infinite worlds created (or infinite x infinite to describe each combination), and again a split in each universe in the next instant for every next possibility. Mmm. Dodgy.

My favourite: John Cramer's Transactional Interpretation. Doesn't require infinite universes' worth of energy, doesn't require an observer to collapse multiple possible waves. Does require you to accept backwards-in-time communication (breaks causality) but brings some very interesting what-if questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_interpretation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by kordless on Sunday December 08, 2013 @12:36AM (#6869072)
I know beans about this, but am intrigued and read as much as I can understand. For whatever reason this reminded me of the bitcoin protocol where they take measures to ensure a coin isn't duplicated in the system. From a personal perspective, I don't like the idea of more than one of me and would take steps to stop duplication of me if I could...
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by hrjet on Sunday December 08, 2013 @04:40AM (#6869368)
Interesting, but that still violates the principle of locality. Inside each world, the scientists are experiencing spooky action at a distance because information in their world is moving faster than light.

edit: removed my question after reading joe_the_user's question.

Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by snowwrestler on Saturday December 07, 2013 @09:05PM (#6868678)
So what ends the entanglement? Or is the idea that particles once entangled are forever entangled?
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by JulianMorrison on Saturday December 07, 2013 @09:16PM (#6868711)
From the "outside", it doesn't end. But consider world A and world B. They are pulled apart from interacting with each other, so they can't do anything to the A-B superposition like they used to. From inside world A, the entanglement seems to have ended because no matter what scientists(world A) do to coin_1(world A), it doesn't affect coin_2(world A). Likewise in world B.
Re:You can’t get entangled without a wormhole by Houshalter on Sunday December 08, 2013 @06:40AM (#6869522)
Many worlds terrifies me and I deeply hope that it is not true.