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Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by niels_olson on Monday November 25, 2013 @04:23PM (#6797148)
> Are we're all so afraid of our own shadow that heroes at the FDA need to protect us?

Hi, physician here. No, that's not why you need the FDA. You need the FDA to protect you for all sorts of reasons. It is not possible for a non-physician to be an informed healthcare consumer. Everything from not marketing methamphetamine to high school students, to ensuring your brain doesn't get cooked by a bug in a CT scanner's software.

There are a lot of ways to die. But on a scale of 1 to 10, death is an 8. Wait till it's your kid.

I had a conversation with a libertarian friend of mine recently:

Me: "If you like libertarianism so much, why not just move to Somalia?"

Him: "Hey, just make sure you're the one with an AK"

Me: "Who's standing watch when you sleep? Where are they looking?"

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by aaronem on Monday November 25, 2013 @05:08PM (#6797421)
> It is not possible for a non-physician to be an informed healthcare consumer.

I never fail to find myself astonished that people in a highly technical field, which is extremely refractory to the layman, nonetheless commonly feel themselves perfectly competent to operate in another highly technical field, entirely orthogonal to their own. The Renaissance man, made obsolete by complexity, is one with history; specialization is the order of the day.

There is no controversy in the statement that not everyone is, or can be, equipped to serve as his own programmer or systems administrator; indeed, the very existence of the field in which most of us find our vocation suffices to demonstrate that fact. Yet many of these very same people consider the mere suggestion, that the same should be true of the field of medicine, as nigh unto an insult direct -- as though it carried some imputation of essential incompetence, rather than being a statement of trivially evident fact. I despair of ever understanding why this should be, live however long I might.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by cperciva on Monday November 25, 2013 @05:26PM (#6797529)
> It is not possible for a non-physician to be an informed healthcare consumer

It's also not possible for a physician to be informed about every possible condition. I have type 1 diabetes, and I know a lot more about it than my GP does -- odds are she's only going to see a handful of T1Ds in her career. When I'm talking to her about my diabetes, I'm educating her rather than vice versa. (So she sends me to an endocrinologist, and he's as far ahead of me as my GP is behind me in knowledge of diabetes.)

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by niels_olson on Monday November 25, 2013 @08:04PM (#6798356)
> It's also not possible for a physician to be informed about every possible condition.

You are absolutely right. The one thing we definitely know is that we're still a long ways off from even having the books written on it all, let alone any one human having even majority of the information in their brain. I'm in pathology, sort of the end of the diagnostic road. We have the molecular tests and microscopes. And we still don't know. In fact, we're best positioned to see the vast ocean of unknown before us. We can't even see the other side.

Sorry to hear about the diagnosis, you've done extraordinary things despite it and I hope more patients can emulate your success. I am constantly educated by my patients.

You're not Canadian, are you? The GP vs endocrinologist issue is actually well-studied there. Unsurprisingly, the specialist-treated patients fair better.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by cperciva on Monday November 25, 2013 @08:23PM (#6798428)
Yes, I am Canadian -- although I had the luck to be diagnosed while I was at Oxford. Having one of the world's leading research institutions in the field (OCDEM) in your back yard helps a lot where clinical care is concerned...
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by IanDrake on Monday November 25, 2013 @05:00PM (#6797386)
>It is not possible for a non-physician to be an informed healthcare consumer.

Are you sure, because I used webMD to diagnose my spontaneous pneumothorax. Went to the clinic told them as much, they laughed. Finally ended up doing a chest x-ray after which a very stern faced doc walked up to me and said, "Sorry, we've never seen this here before. You need to go to the hospital right now."

That was the longer part of the story about the ct scan which was done post-recovery to look for blebs.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by ogreyonder on Monday November 25, 2013 @05:18PM (#6797474)
Same thing here. Personal story short, I discovered--thanks to the internet--that having hypothyroidosis and taking L-Carnitine [1] can cause rhabdomyolysis and acute kidney damage.

3 doctors completely missed huge warning signs and prescribed strong antibiotics in spite of the fact that there was no evidence of infection.

It was only thanks to my being an informed healthcare consumer that I prevented a very bad weekend.

I think it's possible for non-physicians to make informed decisions. I would also say that many want to have someone to blame. In my case, though, blaming someone doesn't help much when your kidneys die.

I'd argue that a $100 DNA test is not a diagnosis tool. It's like a friend looking at your skin and saying 'hey, you should get that mole checked out'.

[1] In the form of Pantothen, the "Natural Acne Cure". Yeah.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by aaronem on Monday November 25, 2013 @05:26PM (#6797530)
>I'd argue that a $100 DNA test is not a diagnosis tool.

I'd argue the same. But that's not in the slightest how 23andme presents itself.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by jasonlotito on Monday November 25, 2013 @06:25PM (#6797830)
Your story only reinforces his point. You still went to the hospital. You still had test and what not done. Sure , you were informed about a specific part, but after that, you went to professionals you trusted.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by oijaf888 on Monday November 25, 2013 @06:46PM (#6797958)
Marfans Syndrome?
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by sirsar on Monday November 25, 2013 @06:18PM (#6797792)
>"If you like libertarianism so much, why not just move to Somalia?"

This is a bit offtopic, but how about "because it was terrible before the collapse of their government, and still is terrible?"

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by jellicle on Monday November 25, 2013 @06:38PM (#6797904)
No, it's an excellent, beautiful place. Because it has no government, and therefore must be, by libertarian definition. Don't you understand? There is no Somalian FDA - which means all you have to do if you want to consume safe food or drugs is to enlist a local food and drug testing company to test things on your behalf. Perfect capitalism! No government interference!

And yet libertarians don't move there. It's baffling. Every single U.S. libertarian talks a great game, but not one of them is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mseebach on Monday November 25, 2013 @07:27PM (#6798174)
Just like North Korea. It's a perfect, magical place. Confiscatory taxes and monetary policy ensures near perfect equality. Full employment. Free government health care. All state run media, no Murdochs or FOX News. All businesses run by the state, no exploitation. The lowest domestic carbon emissions in the industrialised world. A vibrant cultural scene that is free of corrupting American imperialistic influences.

And yet leftists don't move there. It's baffling. Every single U.S. big government liberal talks a great game, but not one of them is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mikeash on Monday November 25, 2013 @09:33PM (#6798721)
That is actually a great argument to use on anyone who espouses the virtues of a totalitarian, all-controlling state.

The difference is that you can actually find people with some frequency who espouse the virtues of extremely small or entirely absent government, while it's pretty hard to find someone who espouses the virtues of a totalitarian, all-controlling state.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mseebach on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @07:30AM (#6800708)
You're correct, of course. The problem is that libertarians doesn't agree that "extremely small or entirely absent government" leads to Somalia and suggesting that they move there is thus the purest of straw men. I just attempted to return the favour.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mikeash on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @09:54AM (#6801603)
Well then the onus is on them to show why Somalia is not a good example, I'd say. Somalia had no government for a decade or two. Since there aren't really different ways to organize "no government" (what with there being no entity to organize anything) then surely there's no room for any differences.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mseebach on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @11:39AM (#6802367)
> Well then the onus is on them to show why Somalia is not a good example

I don't see how that follows. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You got out of North Korea by hand-waving that nobody explicitly wants a "totalitarian, all-controlling state" - yet the libertarian argument is that the constant push to have the government control more and more parts of society constitutes clear, if inadvertent, steps towards exactly that.

Also, the point raised isn't about whether Somalia/North Korea is a libertarian/statist paradise, it's why libertarians/statist don't move there. The answer is in almost all cases, "because I don't want to".

That said, Somalia being unpleasant has a lot more to do with it being extremely poor and ravaged by civil war than is has to do with a lack of government. But in the stateless period, a good number of things improved significantly, despite the lack of government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia_(1991%E2%80%...

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mikeash on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @03:20PM (#6803908)
Well, that's a different kind of person altogether. We're talking about people who think the ideal state is one with no government at all (as evidenced by the fact that the guy claimed to be cool with moving to Somalia as long as he was armed). The people who merely think that government expansion beyond the current size might be bad are totally different and considerably more sane.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mseebach on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @03:47PM (#6804087)
No, that's the same person. There is nothing inconsistent in believing that no government is the ideal and that more government leads to a totalitarian state.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mikeash on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @07:00PM (#6805212)
I don't understand what you're saying. If a person expressed the opinion that Somalia would be a good place to live because it has no government, it's pretty reasonable to ask why they haven't actually moved there.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by ScottBurson on Monday November 25, 2013 @10:37PM (#6798955)
So you'd think. A former lover of mine once told me she was sad that the Soviet Union had collapsed. Blew my mind.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by Evgeny on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @03:40AM (#6799965)
Quite a few people were net worse off after Soviet Union collapsed. I.e. if you had a secure job in some obscure government funded research institute, guaranteed income, free medical care and education for your kids, but now it's free market and no one is interested, so the institute is closed. Sure, there is now abundant food in the shop and you're free to travel abroad, but you have no money and at 40+ years old it's hard to start a new career.

Or maybe you are retired, etc.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by mseebach on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @07:27AM (#6800691)
Presumably the GPs lover was a young, western woman, and only inconvenienced by the collapse of the Soviet Union in an ideological manner.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by ScottBurson on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @04:03PM (#6804186)
Yes, exactly.
Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by Houshalter on Tuesday November 26, 2013 @02:54AM (#6799774)
This is ridiculous. No one has ever claimed a free market would instantly create a perfect utopia overnight, just that it would be better and improve more over time.

In many areas Somalia did significantly improve compared to it's past government and is better off than the countries around it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TTOsWym-dI

Additionally only a small percent of libertarians are anti-statists and want the government gone completely.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by sirsar on Monday November 25, 2013 @10:55PM (#6799001)
> it's an excellent, beautiful place. Because it has no government, and therefore must be, by libertarian definition.

I'm not sure if you're serious. If you're not, I apologize.

If you are, please show me someone claiming that "no government absolutely implies an excellent, beautiful place." Most of the libertarians I know recognize that a place without a government can still be a hellhole. Like Somalia.

Re:My deadly disease was just a 23andme bug by ImprovedSilence on Monday November 25, 2013 @11:37PM (#6799153)
There are many different degrees of "libertarian". In case you haven't notices, politics isn't all hard lines and absolute extremes of the spectrum. Also be sure to not confuse libertarian with Anarchist.