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Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by Cthulhu_ on Friday November 22, 2013 @10:45AM (#6781395)
Magic: the Gathering? It's a game of infinite possibilities and strategies and has a big meta game around it, too. Plus collectibles. Plus cool artwork. Plus good apps.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by phaus on Friday November 22, 2013 @12:40PM (#6782311)
In some ways, the internet ruined games like MTG. I still like to play, but the widespread availability of tournament decklists stifles creativity.

There are still formats where you see a wide variety of decks, but T2 play normally involves picking one of maybe 5 or 6 viable options.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by emidln on Friday November 22, 2013 @12:49PM (#6782375)
The netdeck argument is probably for a different site, but I strongly believe that MTG as a tournament format benefits enormously from widely available top-performing decklists, video and text coverage, and articles on deck strategy as well game tactics with particular decks or deck archetypes.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by phaus on Friday November 22, 2013 @01:00PM (#6782452)
The publicity definitely helped the game grow, but at the same time, people who play tournaments rarely deviate from decks based on the ones that the pros are using.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by emidln on Friday November 22, 2013 @04:27PM (#6783868)
The people who play tournament chess rarely deviate from proven opening sequences as well. As such, publishing move by move accounts of Chess tournaments for documentation and study hinders creativity. See what I did there?
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by phaus on Friday November 22, 2013 @09:04PM (#6784905)
For ranked players, you are absolutely correct. That being said, there is still quite a bit more variety in chess at any level than there is in any given T2 cycle of MTG.

With MTG, even if I went down to my local card shop for Friday Night Magic, there would be enough people there with netdecks to ensure that creative attempts at deck building don't succeed very often.

In a local chess tournament, the level of play isn't even close to being that standardized. Most of the local chess clubs I've been to don't even have more than one or two rated players.

The difference is pretty simple. In MTG, anyone with 200 bucks can buy a world class T2 deck and learn to play it reasonably well in just a few hours. On the other hand, highly standardized play in chess usually only occurs after years of intense study.

There is, however, an easy way to fix MTG's shortcomings. I just play casual/peasant/other unorthodox formats. It makes things more interesting and its cheaper.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by ubernostrum on Saturday November 23, 2013 @02:35AM (#6785579)
The difference is pretty simple. In MTG, anyone with 200 bucks can buy a world class T2 deck and learn to play it reasonably well in just a few hours.

So, I spend my weekends putting on a black uniform and working as a tournament judge at professional-level Magic events. And... maybe you're right that someone could do well at a local FNM this way. But at any sort of serious competitive level (even at the Pro Tour Qualifier level), your assertion just doesn't hold up.

You can see this in tournament results, by the way. Card availability is basically only an issue for casual/FNM play. At any sort of real competitive tournament, the field is made up of players who have access to the cards they want, and the winner is determined by a combination of preparation and skill.

Most importantly, you can see this in results from Limited formats (where players build decks using cards opened on-site from standard booster packs, which are unpredictable enough to constitute a random per-player card pool). Though there are certainly "Limited specialist" players, for the most part you will see similar lists of names among the top finishers in both Limited and Constructed formats, which drives home the point in a frankly undeniable way.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by phaus on Saturday November 23, 2013 @01:18PM (#6786836)
I wasn't really claiming that its easy to win MTG tournaments. I was just illustrating that fairly standardized play begins at a much lower level than it does in chess, because even beginners can buy a world class deck for a small amount of money.

Limited is a great format that I'm glad you mentioned. Anything involving a draft is going to be pretty creative.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that MTG is inferior to chess. I like both games equally well.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by ubernostrum on Saturday November 23, 2013 @07:42PM (#6788118)
I usually reply like that because often I see the attitude that Magic is just a game of spending money on cards -- whoever buys the best cards wins. When in reality, card availability is more of a barrier to entry, and all it does is get you to the point where you're on an even field, card-wise, with actual competitive players. From there it's up to you to have the skill to hang in there.

Beyond the decks/openings analogy though, I'm not sure Magic and chess really compare well.

I think the most interesting distinction is in innovators vs. honers; Gerry Thompson is now out of the game at the professional level, but he was one of the greatest honers who ever played the game. Gerry was not known for coming up with new deck ideas, and in fact the few times he tried it he did horribly. But his ability to analyze the tournament landscape week to week, and make the perfect couple of tweaks to existing deck shells, was unmatched.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by ubernostrum on Friday November 22, 2013 @06:38PM (#6784471)
In some ways, the internet ruined games like MTG. I still like to play, but the widespread availability of tournament decklists stifles creativity.

In some ways, the printing press ruined games like chess. I still like to play, but the widespread availability of opening books stifles creativity.

(I have a lot of experience with MtG, and a fair bit with chess, and this is my go-to analogy. I could also probably write a lot more on how the "netdeck" attitude signals someone is missing out on an unbelievable amount of strategic depth, but that's for another day)

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by GFischer on Friday November 22, 2013 @12:25PM (#6782179)
(not the op) I love Magic: the Gathering and played on and off for 18 years now.

It has two big downsides, the main one for me is that it's extremely expensive (a brand new console + collection of titles is equivalent in price to owning a couple of top tier decks).

The other one is that it's seen as uncool or childish or nerdish. I'd rather not mention it in workplaces anymore.

That said, yeah, building decks playing the metagame is very rewarding intellectually :) and having games 24/7 on Magic Online is great.

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by RBerenguel on Friday November 22, 2013 @12:49PM (#6782370)
/The other one is that it's seen as uncool or childish or nerdish. I'd rather not mention it in workplaces anymore./

Not like Go, don't you think? (I do, been playing go for 10 years already)

Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by dccoolgai on Friday November 22, 2013 @03:15PM (#6783421)
Used to love MTG. Now I play Dominion more - because "building the deck" (which was always the most fun part for me) is part of the game and it's decided more by skill than who can buy the better cards (i.e. at start of every game each player has a statistically equal opportunity to get each card.) It's huge in the "board game geek" scene, so apologies if you already know of it...but if you like MTG, I'd highly recommend it.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by veridies on Friday November 22, 2013 @04:15PM (#6783796)
Another thing I really love about Dominion (from a purely aesthetic standpoint) is that the cards are, like chess, mostly archtypical. It doesn't have any of the sort of fantasy or sci-fi lore that permeates a lot of tabletop games and which can easily turn people off.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by qdog on Friday November 22, 2013 @05:08PM (#6784098)
I've played Dominion, it's kind of interesting. Magic has 'Draft' and 'Cube' formats where deckbuilding with whatever you end up with is important, but it is indeed expensive.
Re:Magnus Carlsen is World Chess Champion by simon_renoult on Friday November 22, 2013 @12:19PM (#6782129)
Plus - sadly - expensive.