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Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @11:03AM (#6726054)
Like, for instance, that the Japanese diplomatic codes had been broken and that the administration had prior knowledge of an imminent attack on Pearl Harbor, yet chose to do nothing, because the public response would finally allow the U.S. to enter the war?

Absolutely, it would have been heroic. It might have led to real justice instead of ruinous warmongering.

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by twoodfin on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @11:42AM (#6726384)
It seems that we're fated to see every conspiracy theory on hn eventually. Wikipedia covers the SIGINT available prior to Pearl Harbor pretty well[1]. There is no evidence that anyone in the entire U.S. civilian or military hierarchy had advance knowledge of the attack.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on...

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @04:48PM (#6771418)
Firstly, it is a conspiracy hypothesis. There is no expectation that it conforms with the facts of history. It was presented to illustrate how a timely leak of a secret might have impacted history positively, rather than negatively, as implied in a previous post.

Secondly, even if it were remotely true, there would have been significant incentives for any involved parties to alter or hide any evidence. History continues to be written by the victors, and crackpots continue to doubt it.

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by kelvin0 on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @05:05PM (#6728957)
Well I guess if Wikipedia doesn't mention it, it didn't happend, right? Awesome argument ...
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by justinpombrio on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @06:52PM (#6729500)
There's a much easier point to be made: If (i) Wikipedia doesn't mention it, and (ii) it's important enough that it would be reasonable to expect Wikipedia to mention it if there were evidence, then you should at least provide a citation as to why you believe such a thing. Otherwise, why should your readers accept your unsubstantiated hypothesis?
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by sliverstorm on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @07:09PM (#6729584)
why should your readers accept your unsubstantiated hypothesis

The typical line of thinking with conspiracy theories seems to be the less substantiated the theory, the more credence it should be lent, under the logic that the government is suppressing evidence.

So basically the less evidence, the more believable. Beautiful, isn't it?

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by justinpombrio on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @07:17PM (#6729630)
Except for the fact that there are more false statements than true ones...
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @04:51PM (#6771441)
That appears to be a conjecture worthy of a thesis in philosophy and/or mathematics.

And where do statements of indeterminate truthfulness fit in?

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by sliverstorm on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @07:44PM (#6729747)
Ssshh, pay no mind to the man behind the curtain.
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by sliverstorm on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @05:43PM (#6729199)
It might have led to real justice instead of ruinous warmongering

If allowing Japan to continue its (quite brutal) invasion of China is what you call justice, I'm not sure we are seeing eye to eye here.

Entering the war made a mess, but so would have staying out of it. The mess was already in motion, it was too late to avoid it either way.

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @06:03PM (#6771897)
I do not accept as axiomatic that war can be made less horrible by adding more combatants.
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by _mulder_ on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @02:40PM (#6727865)
Heroic how exactly? If the US had not entered the war when it did, the whole of Europe, and perhaps the rest of the world, would have probably ended up under Nazi control.

There are many instances of Allied forces breaking codes but not acting on them, because to do so would have signalled to the enemy that their codes had been broken and the advantage would be lost. This comes back to my post further down, most individuals simply don't know the bigger picture!

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by the_af on Wednesday November 13, 2013 @05:54PM (#6729253)
I'm no history buff, but I think that's unlikely.

It's true the US had an isolationist movement, and even business ties to Germany, but it would have eventually entered the war against Nazi Germany. After all, it was already supporting its allies (UK, Soviet Union, etc) via materiel through the Lend-Lease program, before the attack on Pearl Harbor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-lease )

Also, without wanting to diminish the participation of the US in the war, most of the effort was done by other countries, such as the Soviet Union.

Doubtless the final shape of Europe would have been different if the US had entered the war later, but Germany would have been defeated anyway.

Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @06:01PM (#6771877)
What if the US stayed out of Europe and only declared war against Japan? If the US had invaded Manchuria while Stalin was still busy with Europe, the Chinese civil war might have panned out differently.
Re:Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @05:56PM (#6771845)
I think that unlikely. Germany would have fallen to the Russians. Soviet Europe would have stayed that way for a few decades before reverting to independent mixed economies. The real question is what would have happened between China and Japan, without the American nukes.