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Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by angersock on Monday November 11, 2013 @06:21PM (#6714800)
This was the root of my frustration with my time studying mechanical engineering.

Every course I took in the CS, applied math, or EE departments required us to, you know, actually do something. In my POSIX programming class, we wrote lots of programs (malloc, web proxies, and so on). In my graphics class, we wrote renderers (while paper tests covered the algebra of geometry). In my PDE classes, we wrote simulation code in Matlab and saw it run on wave and heat equations.

In mech, though, scarcely any classes had an experimental component. Fluids? Nope. Heat transfer? Negative, barring a baking orb lab and a Reynold's number lab. Machine design? Hah, fat chance--a 25 page report on a fucking bolt was the capstone assignment (alternately, a failure analysis on a gear tooth that chipped in a transmission). Control systems? A few tedious labs more suited to padding out a grad student's paper on teaching engineering than actually, you know, teaching us anything.

The height of this nonsense was a mandatory lab on power generation--one in which we finally got to run a steam powerplant! Except we didn't, and were given the results to run our analysis on instead. Sitting in the campus pub afterwards and grousing into my beer, a facilities guy from the central plant expressed surprise--they'd specifically made sure to have steam run out to make that lab happen. The lab was cancelled because that steam wasn't available, nominally--more likely, the student running it was looking for a way out.

The only good labs we had were an industrial processes lab (machining, welding, and so on), and a strength of materials lab (tension, torsion, and whatnot).

I guarantee that at the end of four years any of our CS or EE kids were substantially better coders--I cannot claim the same for the mechanical engineers I graduated with.

Our final design project was our one true chance to show that we could actually build something, and for many teams that too resulted in failure.

EDIT:

The problem with so much of this is that there are perfectly good ways these things could be taught. Machine design could have you, you know, actually manufacture some cams or build gearboxes. Heat transfer could have you build heat sinks, manage fluid flows, or create exchangers. Control systems could have you build robots or invert pendulums or do any other damn fool cool thing that requires signal transforms.

It's just such a goddamn disappoint.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by gedmark on Monday November 11, 2013 @06:48PM (#6714915)
Aerospace engineer here (now doing software stuff). Around the time I left my alma mater was doing a good job shifting to more courses that involved actually building hardware. Their term for it was DBT for "design, build, test."

It's expensive though. A lot of times students have to go fundraise to pay for their projects. My annual donation to the university is now earmarked specifically for supplies for a couple of undergrad DBT courses.

I'd encourage you to get back in touch with your old department and give them your above feedback, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by starky on Monday November 11, 2013 @11:52PM (#6715923)
The main problem with getting the type of experience you are suggesting in mechanical engineering is that it would be very expensive to do, and there is just too broad of a range of topics to cover practically.

My school definitely focused on practical skill more than yours, with 4 design projects (one was a paper only project) over the course of our degree. We also had a course that was just mechanical engineering labs which covered topics like fluids and heat transfer. Even in courses like Machine Design, the focus was somewhat on design, with all the assignments being miniature design projects where you had to specify real components and justify your choices to the instructor and class. Still students graduated with essentially no practical engineering skills.

You have to take it upon yourself to get the practical experience in your area of interest, be it through co-op jobs and/or student teams. If you don't, the job market is not interested in you.

I think there is going to be some changes coming to traditional engineering education relatively soon. My local professional association seems to be pushing to make the schooling more practical, though nothing major has come of it, just a couple of smaller course changes.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by nether on Monday November 11, 2013 @07:22PM (#6715053)
> Our final design project was our one true chance to show that we could actually build something, and for many teams that too resulted in failure.

This is why student engineering team projects exist. Solar Car, Formula SAE, Human-Powered Helicopter etc. Also, most mechanical engineering jobs are in fact not hands-on, are not "design this radically new machine" (more like "tweak this design so it meets slightly different requirements"), and certainly not turning a lathe (that's for technicians/machinists). Putting more design experience into an ME curriculum means taking out some of the analysis/theory (it takes a long time to build stuff, that's why engineering and manufacturing are separate departments), which is a disservice to the students heading toward pure research and academia.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:42PM (#6715323)
I once heard a friend of mine who complain that engineers are too disconnected from their work. They would design the thing but never once go and actually checkout the physical products that they designed.

I wonder if including things like "turning a lathe" would benefit engineering students. They could in theory design a part to accomplish a certain task (maybe design a fan blade that's unconventional) and analyze it, compare with how it is traditionally done, and so forth.

Either way, one of the best feelings in engineering for me is go draw a 3D rendering for a class and watch it show up as something I can hold in my hand 2 weeks later. No amount of deploying/pushing/launching in software can ever beat that, yet.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by tmuir on Monday November 11, 2013 @09:08PM (#6715422)
"Either way, one of the best feelings in engineering for me is go draw a 3D rendering for a class and watch it show up as something I can hold in my hand 2 weeks later. No amount of deploying/pushing/launching in software can ever beat that, yet."

Embedded development offers this gratification.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by voltagex_ on Monday November 11, 2013 @09:16PM (#6715454)
I'm currently trying to shift my out-of-hours efforts over to more hardware work (Raspberry Pi, Arduino, now Udoo and Cubieboard).

I feel like I'm missing a huge amount of electronics knowledge as soon as I see a discussion about how such and such a trace has been misplaced on a revision of a board or how certain pins could have been better used as an extra SD card reader (ref: the Udoo board)

Is there a less time-intensive way to pick up an understanding of hardware (I'm currently a software guy) than to go an do an ME or EE? I'm certainly not looking for an easy way out but at the moment it feels like trying to go from crawling to supersonic flight.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by columbo on Monday November 11, 2013 @10:53PM (#6715749)
Have you looked at nand2tetris? http://www.nand2tetris.org/

Going even farther back up the chain there's stuff like this: http://www.jpmsupply.com/servlet/the-1082/AM,-Radio,-Solder/...

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by voltagex_ on Tuesday November 12, 2013 @12:08AM (#6715966)
NAND2Tetris looks fantastic, thank you!
Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by analog31 on Tuesday November 12, 2013 @12:06AM (#6715960)
Actually, building and playing with published Raspberry Pi or Arduino projects wouldn't be too bad a way to go. Most of the designs are open, and hobbyists tend not to overcomplicate things. See how many layers of the onion you can peel back, or what small changes you can make.

Choose a board and see how much mileage you can get out of it.

For the lowest level nuts and bolts, Horowitz and Hill's _Art of Electronics_ is still a classic. Going through the first few chapter exercises will get you thinking in terms of voltages and currents.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by voltagex_ on Tuesday November 12, 2013 @12:13AM (#6715988)
Heh, I seem to lose motivation after the first set of blinkenlights, or (this week) when I burnt out my one buzzer by misreading which resistor it needed.

I think I'll go back to a breadboard for a while - Art of Electronics looks like what I need right now.

Edit: Egads! $150AUD for that book

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by analog31 on Tuesday November 12, 2013 @06:55PM (#6722328)
Try for an older edition, second hand. The fundamentals haven't changed.

In fact, that brings up an idea for a way that hardware is sometimes easier than software. The laws of physics that constrain our designs don't go obsolete every 2 weeks.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by smilekzs on Monday November 11, 2013 @09:54PM (#6715563)
You're sure you're not talking about MechEng undergrad program at my school? (sarcasm)

That's stark reality. Nowadays they have too much spherical cow in MechEng curriculum. But that said, you're free to spend your time on internship...

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @06:23PM (#6714815)
OP here. While I agree with what you say, I just don't know how this can be changed. It takes substantially more resources to do anything in mech. Sometimes you can't even lift the stuff you're working with without some other expensive machinery.
Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by angersock on Monday November 11, 2013 @06:26PM (#6714833)
Quite so.

That said, if our tuition is north of a hundred grand (as mine was), one wonders that that expense cannot be borne by the institution.

Even building simple structures and predicting their failure would be a worthwhile endeavor.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:39PM (#6715314)
Now that I think about it... do we ever predict failures in software? Things just seem to break.. and we go in and fix it after.

At least that is my impression.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by beambot on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:09PM (#6715227)
Coops, internships, design courses (like MIT 2.007), fabrication courses (How to build almost anything), undergrad research coursework, hacking w/ friends.

It sounds like many of these schools do a poor job... which means it's even more important for motivated students to seek out opportunities outside the classroom. College is (largely) what you make of it, not what the default curriculum spoon feeds you.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:36PM (#6715311)
I think you're oversimplifying the problem.

When I do programming stuff, a large fraction of the time is spent debugging because my program crashed.

I cannot afford my hardware project "crashing" as that may permanently damage a part and thereby pushing back when i can complete the project by a long time (gotta wait for manufacturing). Sometimes I simply don't have the extra money to buy the replacement.. and this is assuming I have the cash to make the first part after I designed it..

Edit: Now I know if you're motivated enough you could do this, but when all of these factors combine (time delay in getting parts, destroyed parts, lack of funds), you lose momentum fairly quickly.

The alternative is that you could be right the first time by doing calculations, simulations, what have you. But that means you need a deep understanding of a lot of things to begin with, which is what you're trying to gain.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by beambot on Monday November 11, 2013 @09:55PM (#6715566)
I'm talking about how to get real hands-on experience during college... not with the difficulties of hardware. The grandparent mentioned how his curriculum offered poor training -- not all schools are so inept.

Incidentally... I'm a hardware engineer. I built large mobile manipulating robots during gradschool, and I routinely build electronics projects at home. I'm well aware of "hardware problems" (and software bugs that cause real physical damage).

To address your comment: learning how to do the fabrication and hardware debugging yourself is a key part of engineering physical goods. Digital fabrication is nice, but it's not the end-all be-all. For robot fabrication, you can't beat cardboard prototyping, 3D printers, laser cutters, drill press, and table saws. For circuit boards, I routinely use a hot-air rework, exacto knifes (to cut traces), and header breakouts for debugging. Nothing ever works the first time. That's why you learn how to design in a way that facilitates debugging. (All of this is so much more approachable with neighborhood hackerspaces / TechShops.)

EDIT: I have no idea how students of "big" engineering go about getting hands-on experience. Building a bridge is a bit different from robotics and electronics. I presume it has many sub-specialties. I suppose this makes coops and internships even more important.

Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @10:04PM (#6715606)
Yeah, incidentally I also have no idea how people in my field are suppose to get hands on experience at home.
Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by greendata on Monday November 11, 2013 @06:26PM (#6714834)
Chemical engineer who now mostly works as a programmer checking in. This is 100% true.
Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by analog31 on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:47PM (#6715335)
Would 3D printing help with some projects?
Re:Software Is Easy, Hardware Is Of Medium Difficulty by pwnna on Monday November 11, 2013 @08:53PM (#6715356)
Absolutely. Best experience of being in engineering thus far.

However that is still quite limited given what we learn.