Yeah, it's not like the German people are at all sensitive about the topic of having a secret, unaccountable organisation spying on them.

I certainly can't blame them for being upset. But for a NATO country to expel the US embassy would be a very dramatic act with uncertain consequences. There's a lot of fallout to accept there, and the impact would be broader than US-German relations.

> for a NATO country to expel the US embassy would be a very dramatic act with uncertain consequences.

Absolutely, but when German Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich says "those responsible must be held accountable." I would guess that he means that there will, must be consequences. Closing the embassy is a consequence of last resort, if there is continued intransigence.

Will that happen? that's up to the US government, and possibly not the elected part.

As we're learning here in the US, there's a big difference and gap between "the people" and the government.

But there isn't! You might all feel that your government is misrepresenting you, but until serious action is taken, nothing is going to change. What that serious action is, I have no idea. Other countries have dealt with oppressive regimes before, some better than others.

But that's the thing, the government has strayed so far from the people that a) it's obvious they aren't going to seriously consider the people's will other than window dressing, and therefore b) the only way this kind of thing will change is through revolution. And we're far from revolution, if ever. The gap is there.

I agree with you - but I don't think that absolves US citizens of responsibility either.

Replying to jsmeaton

Indeed! They should be on the streets!

I was on the streets, in I think the first set of protests, in front of the Denver state capitol building. It was a fairly sedate protest, except where it went a little off topic toward the end. ("March on the city jail! -- Wait, what?")

And I've communicated with my representatives. Udall is one of my Senators, and his staff got an email and an earful on the phone.

And these days I vote third party, which to me is "None of the above." I'm done playing into their hands by voting for one because at least he's not the other. They're the same.

I do think we're far from revolution, I hope never, but I wouldn't say it won't ever happen. The thing is, a few people are pissed and aware, and most don't care. But once the government realizes that they're getting away with whatever they're doing now, they'll do more. Eventually they'll grab so much power that we'll get sick of it and revolt.

Or maybe they'll go against history and stop grabbing ever more power.

True. However I wonder if they could at least impose an embassy from which many forms of eavesdropping are not possible. i.e. US draws up floorplans and whatnot. The Germans modify those plans to make it into a giant Faraday cage will precisely defined inlets and outlets for water, gas, electricity, sewage, etc. Lastly all additions to the structure externally are to always inspected to make sure they don't contain eavesdropping equipment.

This would at least force all eavesdropping and surveillance performed to be the same kind of eavesdropping and surveillance doable from US soil. Furthermore, the Germans can try to perform some form of enforcement on what types of people can show up at the embassy to work.

With biometrics and sharing between countries, it's conceivable that one day you won't be able to cross official borders with two identities ever again. This means that you effectively force someone to choose only one identity forever. That identity can either be one of your secret government identities or it can be your real identity, but it can no longer be both at different times. Once you choose, you'r stuck with that decision

It certainly would make sense, since the US embassy in Berlin seems to be used for spying, too:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...

> "Research by SPIEGEL reporters in Berlin and Washington, talks with intelligence officials and the evaluation of internal documents of the US' National Security Agency and other information, most of which comes from the archive of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, lead to the conclusion that the US diplomatic mission in the German capital has not merely been promoting German-American friendship. On the contrary, it is a nest of espionage. From the roof of the embassy, a special unit of the CIA and NSA can apparently monitor a large part of cellphone communication in the government quarter."

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/tid-34373/infrarotbi...

^ "US diplomats could be expelled from the country"... mind you, they're not at all talking about closing the embassy, but "just" expelling those under diplomatic immunity who were doing this (and persecuting those not under diplomatic immunity). It might just be to look good for the Germany population, they might be serious... here's hoping.

http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/media/usbotschaft105_v-ardga...

^ infrared image of the embassy rooftop which I saw on German TV, in a discussion which surprised me by its serious tone and the absence of handwaving or belittling.

No, you could not. But now we are entertaining that notion.

That is the change that has occurred.

Fair point.

I would like to see something drastic and concrete happen, if it lead to reining in the wolves.